WaPo: Suicidal students are pressured to withdraw from Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

She technically had a choice. Parents should have stepped in, said no and gotten a lawyer if needed. However, it makes sense to withdraw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

+1. The misunderstanding is that these institutions care about the students. When in reality they are in the money making and reputation building business.

+1. As mentioned above a few minutes ago (but this site has since censored - that was fast) Yale is requiring a new product be taken by all students. But not by faculty. Yale and college institutions, as a rule, do not care about student well-being in the traditional sense of the term.

Colleges are not responsible for the well-being. They are responsible to educate. This isn't a boarding school where there are specific caretakers. Students are adults and expected to care for themselves.

I agree with that. The issue presented is Yale pressuring students to withdraw (apparently in the heat of the moment, so to speak) and/or not allowing return following leave of absence.

What would you do instead? They clearly don’t want the liability in case the student died. They are not mental health providers, what would you do? If the student is struggling and they feel Yale is not the right place for them then they were right to have the students leave. The students and if the parents were sensible would do this on their own. But as mentioned before, people care too much about the prestige and their ego comes into play when thinking about these decisions.

Have better mental health services on campus. The guy pressuring the student to withdraw in the main story is, indeed, a psychologist.

Also, if they’re going to force people out in these cases, they need to make it easy for them to return. This really isn’t that hard. Be humane, FFS.

They have mental health services on campus but at this level, they cannot adequately provide care and make sure the student is safe without someone with eyes on 24/7. We are talking about severely mentally ill students who are suicidal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

And yet, other schools manage to not harass their suicidal students in their hospital beds and kick them out of their homes in a few hours.

I find it unbelievable that people defend Yale here, but maybe that’s why the place has such a reputation for toxicity.

Its a liability issue if they return and commit suicide. Yale and schools are in a no win situation but it wasn't safe for a student to return after hospitalization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

She technically had a choice. Parents should have stepped in, said no and gotten a lawyer if needed. However, it makes sense to withdraw.

Yes, she had a choice. But they misled her into thinking she didn’t have a choice while she was in a vulnerable situation. That’s a horrible thing to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

+1. The misunderstanding is that these institutions care about the students. When in reality they are in the money making and reputation building business.

+1. As mentioned above a few minutes ago (but this site has since censored - that was fast) Yale is requiring a new product be taken by all students. But not by faculty. Yale and college institutions, as a rule, do not care about student well-being in the traditional sense of the term.

Colleges are not responsible for the well-being. They are responsible to educate. This isn't a boarding school where there are specific caretakers. Students are adults and expected to care for themselves.

I agree with that. The issue presented is Yale pressuring students to withdraw (apparently in the heat of the moment, so to speak) and/or not allowing return following leave of absence.

What would you do instead? They clearly don’t want the liability in case the student died. They are not mental health providers, what would you do? If the student is struggling and they feel Yale is not the right place for them then they were right to have the students leave. The students and if the parents were sensible would do this on their own. But as mentioned before, people care too much about the prestige and their ego comes into play when thinking about these decisions.

Have better mental health services on campus. The guy pressuring the student to withdraw in the main story is, indeed, a psychologist.

Also, if they’re going to force people out in these cases, they need to make it easy for them to return. This really isn’t that hard. Be humane, FFS.

He probably thought that was best for the student. I totally agree. Yale is hard. It's not meant for fragile people. Very few people get in. Why risk death by suicide just to stay at Yale?

[Anonymous]

Yale is not the only school that does this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

COVID wasn't even an issue several years ago. How could things "be back to normal for several years"?? That makes zero sense. Several years ago COVID was a common cold.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

What are you talking about? I know of someone who had to take a medical leave because they they blew a fuse in a meeting, someone who came back from lunch drunk multiple times, and another who was manic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

She technically had a choice. Parents should have stepped in, said no and gotten a lawyer if needed. However, it makes sense to withdraw.

Yes, she had a choice. But they misled her into thinking she didn’t have a choice while she was in a vulnerable situation. That’s a horrible thing to do.

She wasn't able to return any time soon so it made sense to withdraw and reevaluate the placement. It doesn't really matter if she stayed enrolled and had to go before a board to return or reapply as its basically the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

COVID wasn't even an issue several years ago. How could things "be back to normal for several years"?? That makes zero sense. Several years ago COVID was a common cold.

How are things different for you as of today? Are you traveling? Seeing friends and family? Shopping in stores? Working in an office? Eating at restaurants indoors?