WaPo: Suicidal students are pressured to withdraw from Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid at Yale (2nd year) and this has been a huge topic of discussion and advocacy in the last few years, especially since the heartbreaking student suicide in 2021. Their policies around this are unacceptable, and I’m glad this article was published in the WaPo as I think and hope it will increase pressure on the university to change. I didn’t go there, but my dd’s experience so far actually been that in so many other regards the campus environment is actually very supportive, both in the supports set up within the residential college system, access to professors, collaborative environment among students etc. I would say without hesitation that this environment is way more supportive and less toxic than my own university experience.
There’s a lot of Yale hate in this post, I’m not sure why. The kids I’ve met there are interesting, motivated, often a bit quirky, lots of passion etc. And generally they are really really happy with their experience there. But everyone who is paying attention agrees that the changes in the last few years did not go far enough in supporting students in crisis.
How universities handle the dramatic increase in the need for mental health services is a tricky topic. I don’t fault universities for buckling under the dramatic increase in demand for services, and we are seeing that play out in non-university settings as well. Therapists waitlists are long. I also don’t expect a university to “care about” my kid, that’s not what institutions do, that’s what people do. But neither to I expect institutional policies to exacerbate crisis, and clearly the remnants of Yale’s reinstatement policies in place there do that. I presume this to be strictly a liability thing, but as other universities have changed their policies on this one, Yale can clearly do the same.

Thanks for posting this. Yale is my DD's #! choice and I am seriously considering encouraging her not to apply. It's a reach for her (as it is for most) but this article made me afraid of the possibility she'd be admitted. She has had mild mental health issues and ADHD. She does really well academically and with ECs but she gets anxious and I don't want her in a pressure cooker environment, especially one that she'll get kicked out of if things deteriorate.

Yale is not the place for her if this is what you are looking for.

I don't understand it when parents don't "want their babies in a pressure cooker." Life is a pressure cooker -- college is a great time to prepare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are not equip to deal with mental health challenges.

Read the article, Yale is way beyond this. They were cruel.

Not really. Schools cannot handle that kind of mental health issues and in a semester or two, its not going to get that much better nor is the right environment. Those students need to be hospitalized and intensive treatment.

Who are you to say if you are not the patient’s doctor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are not equip to deal with mental health challenges.

Read the article, Yale is way beyond this. They were cruel.

Not really. Schools cannot handle that kind of mental health issues and in a semester or two, its not going to get that much better nor is the right environment. Those students need to be hospitalized and intensive treatment.

Also, I can tell you didn’t read the article.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

COVID wasn't even an issue several years ago. How could things "be back to normal for several years"?? That makes zero sense. Several years ago COVID was a common cold.

How are things different for you as of today? Are you traveling? Seeing friends and family? Shopping in stores? Working in an office? Eating at restaurants indoors?

Yes, but not for several years now. For a year. Several years ago there was no such thing as the pandemic.

Then if everything is back to normal for you for a year, then stop complaining about it.

My point is, everything hasn't been back to normal "for several years now." This is an impossibility, since the pandemic hadn't even begun, much less ended, several years ago. Yes, it matters because it's used to shame people who are still masking etc. No, we haven't been back to normal for several years now.

Some of you obviously never went to Yale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

She technically had a choice. Parents should have stepped in, said no and gotten a lawyer if needed. However, it makes sense to withdraw.

Yes, she had a choice. But they misled her into thinking she didn’t have a choice while she was in a vulnerable situation. That’s a horrible thing to do.

She wasn't able to return any time soon so it made sense to withdraw and reevaluate the placement. It doesn't really matter if she stayed enrolled and had to go before a board to return or reapply as its basically the same thing.

Withdrawal from enrollment with reapplication to return is completely different from a leave of absence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

Clearly yale’s behavior leaves a lot (!) to be desired but do you genuinely think kids who attempt suicide are less likely to attempt an again (and possibly succeed) if they go straight from their 48 hrs admission straight back to the same setting with no certainty if follow up or anyone even knowing? Part of being discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt is the medical staff feeling confident there is appropriate safe follow up such that they are less likely to simply re-attempt. That *never* involves-“don’t tell anyone including the people I live with and simply return to my routine on Sunday after an earnest attempt to kill myself friday!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Suicidal students are pressured to withdraw from Yale ~ that's ok with me.

They need help. Yale can't provide it. The student needs to get help where appropriate help is available.

They don’t need to withdraw to get help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

Clearly yale’s behavior leaves a lot (!) to be desired but do you genuinely think kids who attempt suicide are less likely to attempt an again (and possibly succeed) if they go straight from their 48 hrs admission straight back to the same setting with no certainty if follow up or anyone even knowing? Part of being discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt is the medical staff feeling confident there is appropriate safe follow up such that they are less likely to simply re-attempt. That *never* involves-“don’t tell anyone including the people I live with and simply return to my routine on Sunday after an earnest attempt to kill myself friday!”

If would he better for them to stay in an environment with friends, reduce their classes to 2 or even 1, join a support group and do weekly therapy.

That way they stay involved in moving forward in a positive way, but learn to slowly manage mental health, engaging with community, etc.

It’s actually explained in the link yo how BU handles it or the guide to returning to school after taking a break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

Clearly yale’s behavior leaves a lot (!) to be desired but do you genuinely think kids who attempt suicide are less likely to attempt an again (and possibly succeed) if they go straight from their 48 hrs admission straight back to the same setting with no certainty if follow up or anyone even knowing? Part of being discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt is the medical staff feeling confident there is appropriate safe follow up such that they are less likely to simply re-attempt. That *never* involves-“don’t tell anyone including the people I live with and simply return to my routine on Sunday after an earnest attempt to kill myself friday!”

If would he better for them to stay in an environment with friends, reduce their classes to 2 or even 1, join a support group and do weekly therapy.

That way they stay involved in moving forward in a positive way, but learn to slowly manage mental health, engaging with community, etc.

It’s actually explained in the link yo how BU handles it or the guide to returning to school after taking a break.

But that's not what Yale is about. Yale is about being one of the most difficult and rigorous academic environments that there is. It's not meant for people who can only handle 1 class at a time. That's just not the point of being at Yale, for that student or for their cohort. That's like saying someone had a breakdown during boot camp but they still think they should be a Navy Seal. Just under a less rigorous course of training. That's not how it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

Clearly yale’s behavior leaves a lot (!) to be desired but do you genuinely think kids who attempt suicide are less likely to attempt an again (and possibly succeed) if they go straight from their 48 hrs admission straight back to the same setting with no certainty if follow up or anyone even knowing? Part of being discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt is the medical staff feeling confident there is appropriate safe follow up such that they are less likely to simply re-attempt. That *never* involves-“don’t tell anyone including the people I live with and simply return to my routine on Sunday after an earnest attempt to kill myself friday!”

If would he better for them to stay in an environment with friends, reduce their classes to 2 or even 1, join a support group and do weekly therapy.

That way they stay involved in moving forward in a positive way, but learn to slowly manage mental health, engaging with community, etc.

It’s actually explained in the link yo how BU handles it or the guide to returning to school after taking a break.

But that's not what Yale is about. Yale is about being one of the most difficult and rigorous academic environments that there is. It's not meant for people who can only handle 1 class at a time. That's just not the point of being at Yale, for that student or for their cohort. That's like saying someone had a breakdown during boot camp but they still think they should be a Navy Seal. Just under a less rigorous course of training. That's not how it works.

Which is why people who went to Yale insist on telling you that fact as soon as you meet them. They have collective trauma from the experience.

Maybe Yale should consider not being so toxic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.

They should call it a medical leave, should behave humanely, should have excellent care on campus and provide support for return if it’s possible but the fact is kids who have attempted suicide absolutely need a leave. I said this earlier but imagine if an employer had an employee attempt suicide in the workplace and the person came back after the weekend with no break and no further evaluation for ability to safely return-it would not be safe or appropriate for the employee and it would not be safe and fair to coworkers.

There’s no way an employer would prevent an employee from returning. That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. The Yale situation was like firing an employee for a suicide attempt, which would be an unwinnable lawsuit for the employer.

Yale actually handled it well by hospitalizing her and recognizing the problem. The parents didn't. This is not an employer situation and two very different issues.

Yale didn’t hospitalize her. They were informed after the attempt, and then all they did was pressure her to leave voluntarily so that they didn’t need to refund her tuition over an involuntary (and probably illegal) expulsion.

That's probably not why they wanted her to withdraw. Come on. Why jump to that conclusion?

Clearly yale’s behavior leaves a lot (!) to be desired but do you genuinely think kids who attempt suicide are less likely to attempt an again (and possibly succeed) if they go straight from their 48 hrs admission straight back to the same setting with no certainty if follow up or anyone even knowing? Part of being discharged from the hospital after a suicide attempt is the medical staff feeling confident there is appropriate safe follow up such that they are less likely to simply re-attempt. That *never* involves-“don’t tell anyone including the people I live with and simply return to my routine on Sunday after an earnest attempt to kill myself friday!”

If would he better for them to stay in an environment with friends, reduce their classes to 2 or even 1, join a support group and do weekly therapy.

That way they stay involved in moving forward in a positive way, but learn to slowly manage mental health, engaging with community, etc.

It’s actually explained in the link yo how BU handles it or the guide to returning to school after taking a break.

You don’t seem to understand the severity of being suicidal. Weekly therapy is not enough. They need much more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

COVID wasn't even an issue several years ago. How could things "be back to normal for several years"?? That makes zero sense. Several years ago COVID was a common cold.

How are things different for you as of today? Are you traveling? Seeing friends and family? Shopping in stores? Working in an office? Eating at restaurants indoors?

Yes, but not for several years now. For a year. Several years ago there was no such thing as the pandemic.

Then if everything is back to normal for you for a year, then stop complaining about it.

My point is, everything hasn't been back to normal "for several years now." This is an impossibility, since the pandemic hadn't even begun, much less ended, several years ago. Yes, it matters because it's used to shame people who are still masking etc. No, we haven't been back to normal for several years now.

Some of you obviously never went to Yale.

Everything is back to normal. This is also the new normal. This has nothing to do with Covid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot has changed in the last three years. Their policies need to be reviewed, because we are no longer dealing with isolated incidents anymore. I'm the PP who said it wasn't Yale's responsibility to deal with mental illness. I still believe that, but in retrospect, none of us can behave as if it's pre-COVID. It's not. These kids have been through a lot. I think more support so they don't get to the point of taking their lives should be mandatory.

This has nothing to do with Covid.

There is no way to know that. By all accounts, the pandemic has greatly increased mental health problems in young adults, including those on college campuses everywhere. Do you not read?

Actually that's not what studies have shown and things have been back to normal for several years so stop using covid as an excuse for mental health issues. Those students had mental health issues and should never have gone away to school without a therapist/psychiatrist and care plan in place. Suicides are actually down per the actual numbers, not up.

Several years? What are you talking about? I feel like Rip Van Winkle. Please set me straight -- when I went to bed, the pandemic hadn't even started several years ago. How many years have passed since I went to sleep?

Everything has been back to normal except for a select few of us who are still careful.

COVID wasn't even an issue several years ago. How could things "be back to normal for several years"?? That makes zero sense. Several years ago COVID was a common cold.

How are things different for you as of today? Are you traveling? Seeing friends and family? Shopping in stores? Working in an office? Eating at restaurants indoors?

Yes, but not for several years now. For a year. Several years ago there was no such thing as the pandemic.

Then if everything is back to normal for you for a year, then stop complaining about it.

My point is, everything hasn't been back to normal "for several years now." This is an impossibility, since the pandemic hadn't even begun, much less ended, several years ago. Yes, it matters because it's used to shame people who are still masking etc. No, we haven't been back to normal for several years now.

Some of you obviously never went to Yale.

Everything is back to normal. This is also the new normal. This has nothing to do with Covid.

What is it "several years" from then?

[Anonymous]

Unless the article is in serious factual error, I am so disappointed in this university and saddened by it. Change the policy! Stop being cruel.