WaPo: Suicidal students are pressured to withdraw from Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

+1. The misunderstanding is that these institutions care about the students. When in reality they are in the money making and reputation building business.

+1. As mentioned above a few minutes ago (but this site has since censored - that was fast) Yale is requiring a new product be taken by all students. But not by faculty. Yale and college institutions, as a rule, do not care about student well-being in the traditional sense of the term.

Colleges are not responsible for the well-being. They are responsible to educate. This isn't a boarding school where there are specific caretakers. Students are adults and expected to care for themselves.

I agree with that. The issue presented is Yale pressuring students to withdraw (apparently in the heat of the moment, so to speak) and/or not allowing return following leave of absence.

What would you do instead? They clearly don’t want the liability in case the student died. They are not mental health providers, what would you do? If the student is struggling and they feel Yale is not the right place for them then they were right to have the students leave. The students and if the parents were sensible would do this on their own. But as mentioned before, people care too much about the prestige and their ego comes into play when thinking about these decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

Schools are never health care providers nor equipped to provide mental health services to severely mentally ill. It makes sense to have them leave to get the help they need. Parents need to stop expecting the schools to be everything to everyone and get their kids the help they need. Being suicidal rarely happens overnight.

My DC’s friends who suffered from mental health issues in high school are still suffering from it at college. They are under treatment and on medications but its still a struggle for them. Parents should think about the consequences of being too far from home for college if the kid already has mental health issues. College decisions should not be based on prestige and rankings but rather what is best for the child.
It’s appalling that these students suffering from mental health issues and the treatment they received from Yale still wanted to be there after everything. It just shows that prestige trumps everything.

The student that is the subject of the story did not have mental health issues until after her freshman year at Yale, when she was sexually assaulted during the summer before sophomore year. She had PTSD. This isn’t a case of a HS student who had depression for years in HS that chose the wrong college to attend despite pre-existing conditions. So to say don’t send your kids away if they have mental health conditions doesn’t really fix the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

+1. The misunderstanding is that these institutions care about the students. When in reality they are in the money making and reputation building business.

+1. As mentioned above a few minutes ago (but this site has since censored - that was fast) Yale is requiring a new product be taken by all students. But not by faculty. Yale and college institutions, as a rule, do not care about student well-being in the traditional sense of the term.

Colleges are not responsible for the well-being. They are responsible to educate. This isn't a boarding school where there are specific caretakers. Students are adults and expected to care for themselves.

I agree with that. The issue presented is Yale pressuring students to withdraw (apparently in the heat of the moment, so to speak) and/or not allowing return following leave of absence.

What would you do instead? They clearly don’t want the liability in case the student died. They are not mental health providers, what would you do? If the student is struggling and they feel Yale is not the right place for them then they were right to have the students leave. The students and if the parents were sensible would do this on their own. But as mentioned before, people care too much about the prestige and their ego comes into play when thinking about these decisions.

Yale removes the ability of the student to decide for themselves to withdraw and/or return. Requiring re-application after a leave of absence would be a huge factor in a student wanting to avoid taking leave. Yale wants it both ways, for the student to act like an adult but not make their own decisions. A mental health situation is rendered a permanent, incredibly impactful moment in the student's educational career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

I have. Again, I think Yale is a complete villain here but I think it’s possible that someone who just attempted suicide may have made a hasty decision they subsequently regret. People are legally entitled to do that. If she thinks she didn’t have capacity agree to something she could pursue that avenue I guess ( though she has since been re-admitted.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s the thing: mental health and the difficulty surrounding medical leave decisions are challenging issues at every school but we expect better at *Yale*. Yale has resources and did not need to be this cruel. They seem to want to get the problems off campus and off their watch so as not to tarnish their reputation. We should expect better at all schools. Every student has a bright future and their life is precious.

Yale has always had incredibly crappy health services. I never had occasion to use the mental health services, but even when I was there in the late 90s/early to mid 2000s (undergrad and grad), everyone knew the health services were awful. The acronym was DUH (Department of University Health I guess, but everyone called it "duhhhh"). Learning that the mental health services are abysmal does not surprise me in the least.

I loved my time at Yale. But I was never under any illusion that Yale loved me back. It's a big corporation, not a family. It is a mistake to think otherwise.

+1. The misunderstanding is that these institutions care about the students. When in reality they are in the money making and reputation building business.

+1. As mentioned above a few minutes ago (but this site has since censored - that was fast) Yale is requiring a new product be taken by all students. But not by faculty. Yale and college institutions, as a rule, do not care about student well-being in the traditional sense of the term.

Colleges are not responsible for the well-being. They are responsible to educate. This isn't a boarding school where there are specific caretakers. Students are adults and expected to care for themselves.

I agree with that. The issue presented is Yale pressuring students to withdraw (apparently in the heat of the moment, so to speak) and/or not allowing return following leave of absence.

What would you do instead? They clearly don’t want the liability in case the student died. They are not mental health providers, what would you do? If the student is struggling and they feel Yale is not the right place for them then they were right to have the students leave. The students and if the parents were sensible would do this on their own. But as mentioned before, people care too much about the prestige and their ego comes into play when thinking about these decisions.

Have better mental health services on campus. The guy pressuring the student to withdraw in the main story is, indeed, a psychologist.

Also, if they’re going to force people out in these cases, they need to make it easy for them to return. This really isn’t that hard. Be humane, FFS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

I have. Again, I think Yale is a complete villain here but I think it’s possible that someone who just attempted suicide may have made a hasty decision they subsequently regret. People are legally entitled to do that. If she thinks she didn’t have capacity agree to something she could pursue that avenue I guess ( though she has since been re-admitted.)

So you’re saying she’s lying, both about what the staff said and about how she perceived it at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

I have. Again, I think Yale is a complete villain here but I think it’s possible that someone who just attempted suicide may have made a hasty decision they subsequently regret. People are legally entitled to do that. If she thinks she didn’t have capacity agree to something she could pursue that avenue I guess ( though she has since been re-admitted.)

So you’re saying she’s lying, both about what the staff said and about how she perceived it at the time.

I didn’t mean to imply that she was lying. I think feeling pressured is not the same as being forced. In any case, they could (and would) have made her leave involuntarily if she hadn’t agreed to go voluntarily and that (despite Yale’s many other severe missteps) is appropriate imo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMHO, Yale is right to require students take a leave of absence after a suicide attempt, but wrong to put up any barriers to return the following semester or the one after that (depending on when the attempt took place). They should expunge any grades from the lost semester.

A suicide attempt--but not necessarily suicidal thoughts--show that a student needs serious mental health attention that can't be fully addressed while also trying to attend to the classes that in many cases are at minimum exacerbating the situation.

Did you read the article? Yale is not requiring a “leave of absence” they are kicking these students out and making them jump through hoops to be re-admitted.

[Anonymous]

Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO, Yale is right to require students take a leave of absence after a suicide attempt, but wrong to put up any barriers to return the following semester or the one after that (depending on when the attempt took place). They should expunge any grades from the lost semester.

A suicide attempt--but not necessarily suicidal thoughts--show that a student needs serious mental health attention that can't be fully addressed while also trying to attend to the classes that in many cases are at minimum exacerbating the situation.

Did you read the article? Yale is not requiring a “leave of absence” they are kicking these students out and making them jump through hoops to be re-admitted.

A leave is absolutely appropriate. I also think it makes sense that they need to demonstrate that they are in stable psychiatric condition to return. The absolutely tragic fact is that serious mental illness often presents in college age kids. It sounds like they generally were readmitted but the students didn’t have reason to have faith in that and the hoops were absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

And yet, other schools manage to not harass their suicidal students in their hospital beds and kick them out of their homes in a few hours.

I find it unbelievable that people defend Yale here, but maybe that’s why the place has such a reputation for toxicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems likely they would have been forced to leave (temporarily) if they didn’t consent. I think the difficult reinstatement policy is monstrous (as is the insensitive way they hustle kids off campus) but I think it’s clear they would have to take a leave in any case. If an employee attempted suicide in the workplace clearly they wouldn’t be able to fine to work the next day.

How would they have known? And even if they somehow learned, assuming there’s no mental health provision in the enrollment agreement, they’d be on the hook for refunding tuition.

They are adults and the doctors treating them were under the impression they were capable of consent (psychiatrists do evaluations of capacity routinely.) Don’t get me wrong, there is lots wrong with Yale in this situation but I don’t think we can assume they thought they were literally forced to do it.

Did you read the article? It’s clear she didn’t think she had a choice.

I have. Again, I think Yale is a complete villain here but I think it’s possible that someone who just attempted suicide may have made a hasty decision they subsequently regret. People are legally entitled to do that. If she thinks she didn’t have capacity agree to something she could pursue that avenue I guess ( though she has since been re-admitted.)

So you’re saying she’s lying, both about what the staff said and about how she perceived it at the time.

I didn’t mean to imply that she was lying. I think feeling pressured is not the same as being forced. In any case, they could (and would) have made her leave involuntarily if she hadn’t agreed to go voluntarily and that (despite Yale’s many other severe missteps) is appropriate imo.

How would they have learned of the suicide attempt had the medical staff not pressured her into signing the consent? And you greatly underestimate the difficulty of involuntary expulsion over a mental health issue. The ADA would have protected her from expulsion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yale seems insensitive. However, they have a huge liability if the student stays. What if they have a complete breakdown and shoot up a classroom? Then you would all blame Yale.

If only there were options between expulsion and doing nothing.