$80k In Debt Worth It for Ivy Undergrad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any school that’s supportive and nurturing will cost just as much, with less career possibilities.
Any school that’s going to be cheaper, likely state school, will not give you the same kind of access to jobs after school. In many ways, life in your 20-35 will be just as cut throat and misery will last longer than your current situation.
If I were you, I’d take out the loan, find the easier major in your current Ivy, and get the bare minimal grade to get that degree. Then you can find an easy job and start your life. If you hate your job, who doesn’t hate their first 3-5 jobs? You hop and doors remain open if you have that degree.

+1 The warm cozy environment that OP wants sounds like a very expensive SLAC. State schools are going to be more impersonal than any ivy league school

+2. OP, unfortunately, the positive seven sisters' environment will cost just as much money (and I really really doubt anyone's giving you a scholarship at this point), and will open fewer doors for you. Suck it up and get through the degree. I think you'll probably have it even worse if you transfer.

OP here. That's what I thought too, but then I learned about these very generous scholarship programs for non-traditional transfer students:

https://www.wellesley.edu/esp/entering/davis

https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/ada-comstock-scholars-program

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/fp

I'd have to wait until I turn 24 (so three years), which is fine by me.

My friend's DD just graduated from Smith, which she loved. It's all women, but you can take classes at the other four colleges (Hampshire, Amherst, Umass Amherst and Mt. Holyoke), so not isolated at all. She worked at some low-paying job relevant to her field for about a year while she applied to grad school, got accepted to every program, and is enrolling this fall. I'm sure she's going to be really successful (yes, a humanities major) because she's smart and hard-working and really, really cares about the subject she's going to be studying. Not a STEM field, and probably not as lucrative, but as long as you've got a decent middle-class life, the pay is just a scorecard and all that extra pay won't make you happy if you're doing something you hate.

These programs sound like a good option, and they are all prestigious colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please do not take on 80k for your misery just to appease your parents. Do you currently have access to counseling services through your school? Even a few sessions might be able to help you make a plan to move forward. Do you have any friends or other contacts who you might be able to talk to about your situation?

I work in college access. If you were one of my students, I would encourage you to at least take a leave for a semester so you can figure out what you want to do. Don't take out these loans under pressure. Get a place with roommates, get a regular people job, start exploring your options. Check out your state school options. You really don't want to get locked into a situation where you have to work at a job you hate and in which you feel like a failure just to pay loans that you didn't want to take in the first place!

I hate to tell you, as a state school graduate, not only I have to work a job that I hate, for subsequent job hops, I can only be considered for jobs similar to what I have done before.
Such rule do not apply to Ivy kids, hate finance? they run to endowment investor relations. Hate accounting? they do business dev with wealth management firms. Hate their hedge fun job? Some lobbyist firm will take them right in.
The competition is cut throat for us for life. and people are more brutal. If you are ivy, your managers don't want to steamroll you because they expect you to be high up in another organization later on. They will take out their anger on us instead.

I really hate to say this, OP, but this poster is correct.

My DD graduated from a no-name college, but then went to a prestigious grad program. She tried looking for a job with her no-name degree and got NOWHERE. Nada. She spent two years at the prestigious grad school, and presto changeo, she got a dozen job offers. Same smart kid, but that degree opened doors. Prestige matters in the job market, I hate to say it.

I understand how much you hate your college I went to an Ivy and I hated it too. The hyper-competitive kids made me sick. All they wanted to do was go to law/med/business/tech and make loads of $$$. They had no interest in learning, just in achieving!! Status was everything to them (I know this is ironic, as I'm pushing status in this post!) and they did everything they could, short of eating babies, to get where they wanted to go. It made me sick to go to college with these types, even though I made a small group of friends there who thought as I do.

But you live in a real world where an Ivy degree is helpful. I left for a year, then came back and finished, even though I loathed the school, the other kids, even most of the professors. It did not suit me at all!!!

Sad to say, for me, and for DD, a prestigious degree is helpful in your career. Idiots who do the hiring LOVE those fancy degrees. Smile, and look past them to the interesting job you'll get.

I'm so sorry your parents aren't supportive. We don't choose our parents, and it hurts when they don't get us. But don't let your parents ruin your life!! You have talents that they don't value.

My DS majored in theater. He found a job almost immediately after graduating and makes a decent salary doing marketing for a well-known company. Humanities majors are great!! Companies who recognize their flexibility and ability to think value kids who major in humanities. You don't have to work in CS or any other STEM field if you don't want to, and yes, you can be very successful with a humanities degree from an Ivy.

BTW, do you go to Dartmouth? My best friend went there and transferred to my Ivy. She loathed it beyond all imagining. She didn't love my Ivy, but it was better at least than Dartmouth.

OP here. Do you mind emailing me at [e-mail] ? No worries if you would rather not spend your time emailing randos, but I feel like I have so many questions for you specifically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The posters here who are criticizing- or even suggesting that the OP’s parents would be happy is she successfully suicided are vile. OP is depressed - clinically depressed - and calling her lazy or selfish or other horrible things just shows how little most people understand about mental health.

OP - get healthy first - you are in no state to make life altering decisions. Find a mentor who has your best interests at heart and take some time to get in a good mental place before making these decisions. In the meantime- refine exactly what you want to do. If you really want to work at a nonprofit do some volunteering and see where it leads you. I wish you well.

OP is depressed because her life isn’t her own. She accomplished most of it by being in a fast current built by her parents. She is successful for her age but she never had control, never thought about her own goals, never figured out what made her unhappy vs happy.

OP and go out fail fast and bounce back, or she can stay where is she mistakenly thinking about all the anti-parent behavior will dug her out of this hole (it won’t).

[Anonymous]

I’m an Asian parent. Op, I would be very hesitant to pay for you in this case if I were your parent. You said they are low income so they’ll need to take care of their own finance. Can you take a longer leave and work a few years before finishing your degree? Unless you’re born super rich, people do things they dislike at some point of their life. In your case, getting the degree you are already 3/4 done and find a job (like or not) that can support your independence would be the most rational option, but do take care of your mental health first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I've read everyone's responses, and I think the best thing to do for me is to leave my current school and wait until I'm 24 to transfer to another school (maybe that's Smith, maybe it's somewhere else) so I can graduate as cheaply as possible. Thanks.

And yes, Ivies do have tremendous benefits in terms of opportunities post-grad. But that's ONLY if I am a high performer at my current Ivy, which I know I won't be because my school makes me miserable. I am way too depressed and unhappy at Columbia to network, make relationships, and truly make the best out of my experience there. I'd be much happier at a cheap state school or 7 sisters school.

You’re at Columbia? Barnard’s right across the street! I transferred there from NYU in the 90s (stone age). It was wonderful, but i dont think 7 sisters is whst you need. You need to get out of the city rat race. Plus Barnard and 7 sisters have stringent grad requirements too, if not Columbia’s core curriculum. Also, i thought the core was very humanities focused. Why did you hate it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you mention an interest in the Seven Sisters schools. I’m curious to know if you’ve looked into either attending Barnard or taking all, or most of your coursework at Barnard to complete your degree. That would give you a Seven Sister school environment, and, because it’s part of Columbia University, it might be easier to get credit for the coursework you’ve already completed—compared to other schools.

As to your “parting words”, you’re making quite a few over- generalizations. You also seem startlingly certain that you’ll both get accepted by a Seven Sisters school, and get a scholarship that will allow you to attend “for free”. I wish you luck with that. I also hope you have thought through a few backup plans, in case your ideal plan doesn’t work out in ways that meet your expectations.

OP here. I've checked out the Barnard thing, but unfortunately it's not a possibility for me -- almost all of my classes are at Columbia. And my parents have already told me upfront that they would never pay money for me to go from Columbia to Barnard.

I understand that my chances of getting accepted by a Seven Sisters school is not as high as I previously phrased it to be. In case I get rejected, I'm planning on entering my state school (I'm from California, so they're excellent) at 24 (so I'd be considered a financial independent).

Barnard is an amazing school and it’s impressive on its own. Im Asian and graduated from there. Your parents are snobs and ill informed, but there’s no excuse for you overlooking this amazing sister school-/ and yes, of course it’s a 7 sisters! I dont think you will have luck getting into another 7 sisters school, and definitely cant go for free! The real world will be a much needed wake up call for you, im afraid. Im team drop out and work. Get some street sense. It seems you were far too sheltered by your parents.

[Anonymous]

Op seems has a richkid mentality but grew up poor. America is a capitalistic society. No money, no freedom. Your parents probably have lots of struggles of their own being first gen immigrants and low income. They should not have shielded you from this reality in the past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op seems has a richkid mentality but grew up poor. America is a capitalistic society. No money, no freedom. Your parents probably have lots of struggles of their own being first gen immigrants and low income. They should not have shielded you from this reality in the past.

Very common. I am Asian and grow up poor with rich mentality. I am 38 now and make good $$ so I can revisit this rich mentality and provide for my kids to live like that. Late >> never. It’s fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

OP here. It's true that many NPOs are known for toxic environments and employee gaslighting due to the factors PP described. And if I find myself in one of those toxic environments... so what? I'll probably jump ship to a higher paying gig in corporate communications or any of the other industries I'm interested in. Having $80k in debt is much worse than being stuck with a toxic employer you can quickly quit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you mention an interest in the Seven Sisters schools. I’m curious to know if you’ve looked into either attending Barnard or taking all, or most of your coursework at Barnard to complete your degree. That would give you a Seven Sister school environment, and, because it’s part of Columbia University, it might be easier to get credit for the coursework you’ve already completed—compared to other schools.

As to your “parting words”, you’re making quite a few over- generalizations. You also seem startlingly certain that you’ll both get accepted by a Seven Sisters school, and get a scholarship that will allow you to attend “for free”. I wish you luck with that. I also hope you have thought through a few backup plans, in case your ideal plan doesn’t work out in ways that meet your expectations.

OP here. I've checked out the Barnard thing, but unfortunately it's not a possibility for me -- almost all of my classes are at Columbia. And my parents have already told me upfront that they would never pay money for me to go from Columbia to Barnard.

I understand that my chances of getting accepted by a Seven Sisters school is not as high as I previously phrased it to be. In case I get rejected, I'm planning on entering my state school (I'm from California, so they're excellent) at 24 (so I'd be considered a financial independent).

Barnard is an amazing school and it’s impressive on its own. Im Asian and graduated from there. Your parents are snobs and ill informed, but there’s no excuse for you overlooking this amazing sister school-/ and yes, of course it’s a 7 sisters! I dont think you will have luck getting into another 7 sisters school, and definitely cant go for free! The real world will be a much needed wake up call for you, im afraid. Im team drop out and work. Get some street sense. It seems you were far too sheltered by your parents.

Why do you think I wouldn't be able to get into any of these programs?

https://www.wellesley.edu/esp/entering/davis

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/fp

https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/ada-comstock-scholars-program

Also PP, I agree with you that I'm better off dropping out and working. In that case, wouldn't I be better off returning to college at 24 to a cheaper school? I know the UCs have almost full-ride for in-state students who are non-traditional transfer students (which I would be if I returned to college at 24).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m an Asian parent. Op, I would be very hesitant to pay for you in this case if I were your parent. You said they are low income so they’ll need to take care of their own finance. Can you take a longer leave and work a few years before finishing your degree? Unless you’re born super rich, people do things they dislike at some point of their life. In your case, getting the degree you are already 3/4 done and find a job (like or not) that can support your independence would be the most rational option, but do take care of your mental health first.

They were low-income when I was a toddler, and for most of my childhood, they were fairly medium-income. Now, their HHI is $200k/year (hence why Columbia dropped all of my financial aid).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters here who are criticizing- or even suggesting that the OP’s parents would be happy is she successfully suicided are vile. OP is depressed - clinically depressed - and calling her lazy or selfish or other horrible things just shows how little most people understand about mental health.

OP - get healthy first - you are in no state to make life altering decisions. Find a mentor who has your best interests at heart and take some time to get in a good mental place before making these decisions. In the meantime- refine exactly what you want to do. If you really want to work at a nonprofit do some volunteering and see where it leads you. I wish you well.

OP is depressed because her life isn’t her own. She accomplished most of it by being in a fast current built by her parents. She is successful for her age but she never had control, never thought about her own goals, never figured out what made her unhappy vs happy.

OP and go out fail fast and bounce back, or she can stay where is she mistakenly thinking about all the anti-parent behavior will dug her out of this hole (it won’t).

OP here. You nailed my current predicament. But taking out $80k in loans is not conducive to "failing fast" -- it means that I would have to gun for a high-paying but soul-sucking, competitive job after graduation if I wanted to chip away at the principle.

I will almost certainly be graduating into a recession. I thought about how Columbia alumni who graduated in 2008 who also took out an enormous amount of student loans felt 14 years ago -- they probably would've told their high school self to go to a cheaper school and minimize student debt. As someone who will probably be in their shoes post-grad, I'm much better off trying to finish college in a way that leaves me with little to no debt than borrowing an enormous amount of money for a fancy degree.

Last night, I laid in bed wondering what my future would be like if I stayed at Columbia. I'd borrow the $80k, work for some consultancy post-grad, and be absolutely miserable. PP, you're right that I'm depressed because my life isn't my own. I didn't have any agency in my childhood, and I won't have any agency in the future if I take out this much in loans. I know this will make me even more depressed, so it's best if I cut this off right now while I don't have any student debt.

The only reason to take a high-paying job you hate, IMO, is if you have children to support (not me, obviously, and I don't plan on having kids in the future), extended family members to support (my parents don't need me to help out with finances now that their HHI is $200k/year), or a large amount of student debt (which I'm trying to avoid). As long as I can avoid those three things, I'm fine starting out with a lower-paying job and working my way up the latter into something that's medium-paying in the long-run. Sure, I'll never make as much money as the MBB/BB IB/ FAANG/Big Law folks, but I know I'll be much happier doing things my own way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not worth it. I had unheard of 70k debt in 1999. My parents stop paying tuition and I had to make up their share of the expected family contribution and I could not get grants because of their income. The debt was absolutely crippling and it affected my career decisions and I had to work three jobs until I was 31 years old to pay it off and I had absolutely no fun and no friends in my 20s and hardly any dating and let me to make a terrible terrible mistake getting married to the wrong person at 32 because when I should’ve been having fun and figure my life out in my 20s I was working several jobs to pay off my debt.

+1000

I am shocked at the number of people telling OP to take out $80k in loans, especially when her mental health is this fragile and she clearly hates her school.