$80k In Debt Worth It for Ivy Undergrad?

[Anonymous]

OP, can you get a mediator (possibly a sympathetic friend or family member) to negotiate with your parents?

Would you be willing to stick it out for three more semesters if you didn't have to burden yourself with $80k in loans?

I do think a Columbia degree is valuable. It means something to people who are trying to sort through a mountain of applicants.

A friend is an admin for a federal judge. She throws out all the resumes that come in from every law school except Harvard, Yale and Stanford. I've told her she's missing some great people, but she says the pile is so huge that she has to draw the line somewhere.

It's too much work for employers to try to find the great person with a degree from a state school when they have applicants who've been pre-screened by an Ivy League college. It's unpleasant and stupid, but that's life, OP.

Please ignore the horrible trolls on this thread!! Some people have nothing to do but be mean.

You're clearly smart, and if you've got a good therapist, hang in there! See if you can work your way through this and not throw away the degree you've worked so hard for. I know you're not doing what YOU want, but that doesn't mean that what you're doing is not valuable, and that it may become useful to you some day.

But if your mental health is suffering, you need to take care of that first and foremost. I graduated from an Ivy while suffering from pretty serious depression. I got mostly As because I love to study, but I didn't do as well as I could have done if I hadn't been so depressed. But even now, years later, people are VERY impressed by my Ivy degree.

Any way you can find to stick with it, OP, will be worth it in the long run, even though you're very unhappy right now. Three semesters is not that long, even though it seems like forever to you now.

New York City is a fantastic place to live!! There is so, so, so much to love there! I joined TDF and saw amazing Broadway and dance shows for $20 or less when I lived there after I finished college. Get outside and enjoy the city, do the best you can to finish your classes, get your degree and GO! Do what you want to do!!

A negotiator might be able to talk sense into your parents if they fear losing the bragging rights to having a daughter graduate from an Ivy. Shame them if you have to! Public humiliation might get them to sign the checks. Lie to them if you must. Say you're getting a degree in data management or something like that, even if you're studying sociology. Un-sign the FERPA (if you've signed it), and don't let them see your grades.

Desperate times demand desperate measures. Don't give up on yourself, OP. You will find many people in your life who will love you for being yourself, who will value thing things you value about yourself, who will share your interests and dreams. My parents were pretty sub-par, but I survived and thrived once I got some therapy and realized that their disapproval of me didn't make me less valuable. All you need is one supporter, and you can keep going and become independent.

As far as your $80k question, only you can decide that. If you go to grad school, you can delay paying the loan back for a number of years. Most PhD programs are free (the good ones), so you could delay for a long time. You'd have to find a field you love, and get accepted, which requires vigilance and perseverance.

Try to find a negotiator to help you. Your parents have paid thus far. Someone might be able to convince them to keep paying to get you that coveted degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you mention an interest in the Seven Sisters schools. I’m curious to know if you’ve looked into either attending Barnard or taking all, or most of your coursework at Barnard to complete your degree. That would give you a Seven Sister school environment, and, because it’s part of Columbia University, it might be easier to get credit for the coursework you’ve already completed—compared to other schools.

As to your “parting words”, you’re making quite a few over- generalizations. You also seem startlingly certain that you’ll both get accepted by a Seven Sisters school, and get a scholarship that will allow you to attend “for free”. I wish you luck with that. I also hope you have thought through a few backup plans, in case your ideal plan doesn’t work out in ways that meet your expectations.

OP here. I've checked out the Barnard thing, but unfortunately it's not a possibility for me -- almost all of my classes are at Columbia. And my parents have already told me upfront that they would never pay money for me to go from Columbia to Barnard.

I understand that my chances of getting accepted by a Seven Sisters school is not as high as I previously phrased it to be. In case I get rejected, I'm planning on entering my state school (I'm from California, so they're excellent) at 24 (so I'd be considered a financial independent).

Barnard is an amazing school and it’s impressive on its own. Im Asian and graduated from there. Your parents are snobs and ill informed, but there’s no excuse for you overlooking this amazing sister school-/ and yes, of course it’s a 7 sisters! I dont think you will have luck getting into another 7 sisters school, and definitely cant go for free! The real world will be a much needed wake up call for you, im afraid. Im team drop out and work. Get some street sense. It seems you were far too sheltered by your parents.

Why do you think I wouldn't be able to get into any of these programs?

https://www.wellesley.edu/esp/entering/davis

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/fp

https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/ada-comstock-scholars-program

Also PP, I agree with you that I'm better off dropping out and working. In that case, wouldn't I be better off returning to college at 24 to a cheaper school? I know the UCs have almost full-ride for in-state students who are non-traditional transfer students (which I would be if I returned to college at 24).

I think you can get into one of those programs if you want.

You'd likely be disappointed by the number of pre-professional students at these colleges. They are competitive too! But a smaller school can be more nurturing, although not always. If you're realistic about what you want, these schools all offer a fine education, and possibly a less ferociously competitive atmosphere than does Columbia.

BTW, DD's best friend just graduated from Barnard. She loved it. I never heard her complain about it. She really liked her classes and friends. Barnard seems like a bit of an oasis, at least it was for her.

Keep following your own path, OP. You have the smarts and the skills and you'll get through this tough period if you just put one foot in front of the other. Keep moving and it will be over, and you'll end up where YOU want to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous[b wrote:]OP, can you get a mediator (possibly a sympathetic friend or family member) to negotiate with your parents?
[/b]
Would you be willing to stick it out for three more semesters if you didn't have to burden yourself with $80k in loans?

I do think a Columbia degree is valuable. It means something to people who are trying to sort through a mountain of applicants.

A friend is an admin for a federal judge. She throws out all the resumes that come in from every law school except Harvard, Yale and Stanford. I've told her she's missing some great people, but she says the pile is so huge that she has to draw the line somewhere.

It's too much work for employers to try to find the great person with a degree from a state school when they have applicants who've been pre-screened by an Ivy League college. It's unpleasant and stupid, but that's life, OP.

Please ignore the horrible trolls on this thread!! Some people have nothing to do but be mean.

You're clearly smart, and if you've got a good therapist, hang in there! See if you can work your way through this and not throw away the degree you've worked so hard for. I know you're not doing what YOU want, but that doesn't mean that what you're doing is not valuable, and that it may become useful to you some day.

But if your mental health is suffering, you need to take care of that first and foremost. I graduated from an Ivy while suffering from pretty serious depression. I got mostly As because I love to study, but I didn't do as well as I could have done if I hadn't been so depressed. But even now, years later, people are VERY impressed by my Ivy degree.

Any way you can find to stick with it, OP, will be worth it in the long run, even though you're very unhappy right now. Three semesters is not that long, even though it seems like forever to you now.

New York City is a fantastic place to live!! There is so, so, so much to love there! I joined TDF and saw amazing Broadway and dance shows for $20 or less when I lived there after I finished college. Get outside and enjoy the city, do the best you can to finish your classes, get your degree and GO! Do what you want to do!!

A negotiator might be able to talk sense into your parents if they fear losing the bragging rights to having a daughter graduate from an Ivy. Shame them if you have to! Public humiliation might get them to sign the checks. Lie to them if you must. Say you're getting a degree in data management or something like that, even if you're studying sociology. Un-sign the FERPA (if you've signed it), and don't let them see your grades.

Desperate times demand desperate measures. Don't give up on yourself, OP. You will find many people in your life who will love you for being yourself, who will value thing things you value about yourself, who will share your interests and dreams. My parents were pretty sub-par, but I survived and thrived once I got some therapy and realized that their disapproval of me didn't make me less valuable. All you need is one supporter, and you can keep going and become independent.

As far as your $80k question, only you can decide that. If you go to grad school, you can delay paying the loan back for a number of years. Most PhD programs are free (the good ones), so you could delay for a long time. You'd have to find a field you love, and get accepted, which requires vigilance and perseverance.

Try to find a negotiator to help you. Your parents have paid thus far. Someone might be able to convince them to keep paying to get you that coveted degree.

OP here.

1. The mediator is a great idea, but unfortunately something we've already done. Last month, when my parents were preparing to appeal the financial aid award from Columbia, they hired an outside professional who specializes in helping immigrant parents from our ethnicity file the FAFSA and CSS as well as qualify and appeal financial aid from colleges. Unfortunately, her shrewd expertise (obviously) didn't work on Columbia. But she did insist to my parents that having me take on $80k in student loans through mostly private predatory lenders would be an AWFUL idea. They unfortunately refused to listen to her.

2. Law is a notoriously prestige-reliant field, so I don't think your friend's example applies to anything outside of law. And besides, law relies on law school prestige and not undergrad prestige. In fact, I'd argue my chances of getting into HYS for law school would be higher if I left Columbia (not that I have any interest in getting a JD -- I don't).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you mention an interest in the Seven Sisters schools. I’m curious to know if you’ve looked into either attending Barnard or taking all, or most of your coursework at Barnard to complete your degree. That would give you a Seven Sister school environment, and, because it’s part of Columbia University, it might be easier to get credit for the coursework you’ve already completed—compared to other schools.

As to your “parting words”, you’re making quite a few over- generalizations. You also seem startlingly certain that you’ll both get accepted by a Seven Sisters school, and get a scholarship that will allow you to attend “for free”. I wish you luck with that. I also hope you have thought through a few backup plans, in case your ideal plan doesn’t work out in ways that meet your expectations.

OP here. I've checked out the Barnard thing, but unfortunately it's not a possibility for me -- almost all of my classes are at Columbia. And my parents have already told me upfront that they would never pay money for me to go from Columbia to Barnard.

I understand that my chances of getting accepted by a Seven Sisters school is not as high as I previously phrased it to be. In case I get rejected, I'm planning on entering my state school (I'm from California, so they're excellent) at 24 (so I'd be considered a financial independent).

Barnard is an amazing school and it’s impressive on its own. Im Asian and graduated from there. Your parents are snobs and ill informed, but there’s no excuse for you overlooking this amazing sister school-/ and yes, of course it’s a 7 sisters! I dont think you will have luck getting into another 7 sisters school, and definitely cant go for free! The real world will be a much needed wake up call for you, im afraid. Im team drop out and work. Get some street sense. It seems you were far too sheltered by your parents.

+1000

OP, stay at Columbia and grind it out. College might suck for you, but the real world sucks more if you don't have Ivy pedigree. Life is a miserable, unpleasant slog and then we die. Might as well take the Ivy pedigree and work to pay off the loans.

You seem immature, sheltered, lazy, and spoiled. I'm surprised you even got into Columbia in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

OP here. It's true that many NPOs are known for toxic environments and employee gaslighting due to the factors PP described. And if I find myself in one of those toxic environments... so what? I'll probably jump ship to a higher paying gig in corporate communications or any of the other industries I'm interested in. Having $80k in debt is much worse than being stuck with a toxic employer you can quickly quit.

Hey OP,

I'm one of the PPs quoted above. You're right that you're stuck in a toxic environment right now, but that environment (college) has a very clear exit strategy (fulfill your graduation requirements) and exit timeline (graduation day). The working world is very different and not as clear-cut. Yes, you can and should quit toxic environments. But there's no guarantee that the next job will come when you need it, or that your ideal employer will accept you for the salary you do desire. What would you do between jobs, and what if that period is a long one indeed -- would you move in with mom and dad?

Navigating the working world is very different from college and a big shock to many recent grads. Moving from nonprofits to the corporate comms side also isn't a walk in the park. Nothing is impossible, but those I know trying to do it had a very hard time competing against people coming out of the top comms/PR agencies; the nonprofit experience wasn't taken as seriously. Don't let idealism about the working world blind you. It's not better or worse than college, it's wholly different and comes with its own set of challenges and vipers. Those take a while to recognize and to learn how to navigate. If you're deadset on nonprofits, I'd recommend volunteering with the ones you're passionate about to see if those environments along with your expectations. I had some pleasant surprises and some absolute horror stories through that experience.

I'm not saying you should stay at your current college. But you should consider: 1) where would you WANT to go?, 2) how would your credits transfer -- would transferring require you to take out more loans and take more time to graduate?, 3) is the new place what you truly want, and what if you change direction again -- what's the plan?, 4) is there ANYTHING your college can do to help you stay, either via financial aid, a gap year, etc?

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

+3 million

Some of the higher-paying places can be demanding, too, but damn if the mental damage from those lower-paying jobs doesn't stunt a lot of people professionally for a few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

+3 million

Some of the higher-paying places can be demanding, too, but damn if the mental damage from those lower-paying jobs doesn't stunt a lot of people professionally for a few years.

OP here. Can you talk more about this? No worries if it's too traumatizing for you or too painful to talk about; I've just never really heard about NPO trauma (if that's a phrase, lol)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

OP here. It's true that many NPOs are known for toxic environments and employee gaslighting due to the factors PP described. And if I find myself in one of those toxic environments... so what? I'll probably jump ship to a higher paying gig in corporate communications or any of the other industries I'm interested in. Having $80k in debt is much worse than being stuck with a toxic employer you can quickly quit.

Hey OP,

I'm one of the PPs quoted above. You're right that you're stuck in a toxic environment right now, but that environment (college) has a very clear exit strategy (fulfill your graduation requirements) and exit timeline (graduation day). The working world is very different and not as clear-cut. Yes, you can and should quit toxic environments. But there's no guarantee that the next job will come when you need it, or that your ideal employer will accept you for the salary you do desire. What would you do between jobs, and what if that period is a long one indeed -- would you move in with mom and dad?

Navigating the working world is very different from college and a big shock to many recent grads. Moving from nonprofits to the corporate comms side also isn't a walk in the park. Nothing is impossible, but those I know trying to do it had a very hard time competing against people coming out of the top comms/PR agencies; the nonprofit experience wasn't taken as seriously. Don't let idealism about the working world blind you. It's not better or worse than college, it's wholly different and comes with its own set of challenges and vipers. Those take a while to recognize and to learn how to navigate. If you're deadset on nonprofits, I'd recommend volunteering with the ones you're passionate about to see if those environments along with your expectations. I had some pleasant surprises and some absolute horror stories through that experience.

I'm not saying you should stay at your current college. But you should consider: 1) where would you WANT to go?, 2) how would your credits transfer -- would transferring require you to take out more loans and take more time to graduate?, 3) is the new place what you truly want, and what if you change direction again -- what's the plan?, 4) is there ANYTHING your college can do to help you stay, either via financial aid, a gap year, etc?

Good luck, whatever you decide.

OP here. Excellent points, and I really appreciate you laying this out clearly for me. To answer your questions:

1. I looked at the program Smith has for non-traditional transfer students (women 24 or older). https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/ada-comstock-scholars-program

I would end up with WAY less than $80k in loans, since by the time I'm 24, I'll be considered an independent student for financial aid purposes (so my parent's income wouldn't be considered). Since my income for my early 20s will inevitable be really low (especially since I'll be a college drop-out), I'll get close to a full ride from Smith (especially since the school meets 100% of demonstrated need). Ditto with Wellesley and Mount Holyoke. Yes, I'll be graduating college at 23 instead of 26, but I'll be saving myself a ton of student loan debt.

2. I did more research into Smith, and I think I would love it -- it's the total opposite of Columbia. The open curriculum (vs. Columbia's Core), the school environment (laid back vs. Columbia's intense, competitive nature), and more idealistic student body would be an excellent fit for me. And if they're giving me a close-to-full-ride as an independent student, I can't really leave at that point.

3. For your last question, Columbia doesn't really give a shit about me staying. This is because the school has AWFUL administrative support for undergrads and definitely uses a sink-or-swim mentality. The school's mentality seems to be "you should be lucky to go here!" instead of "we're lucky to have you," so they really could not give less shits that I have to take out $80k in loans. I could take several gap years (although keep in mind I'm already on one at this point) to try to meet that $80k deficit, but at that point, I'd be returning to college at age 23. I might as well just transfer to Smith then and go for almost free versus paying out the ass at Columbia.

[Anonymous]

My personal advice would be to tell your parents you will only go back if they pay half of that $80k. So you will take a max of $40k in loans.

Another idea is to try to do a year abroad or even be a visiting student at one of the colleges you like. Check with your advisor at Columbia (there are rules about how many credits you need to earn at the graduating school and how many of those credits must be consecutive before graduation) and some of the colleges. Here's Smith's program:

https://www.smith.edu/admission-aid/how-apply/visiting-year

Another related idea is to get permission to do a summer at another college) and maybe see if Columbia will give you internship credit and try to whittle down your time there to 2-3 semesters instead of 3-4.

Harvard's summer program has lots of 4 credit classes and Cambridge is very pleasant in the summer.

https://summer.harvard.edu/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

+3 million

Some of the higher-paying places can be demanding, too, but damn if the mental damage from those lower-paying jobs doesn't stunt a lot of people professionally for a few years.

OP here. Can you talk more about this? No worries if it's too traumatizing for you or too painful to talk about; I've just never really heard about NPO trauma (if that's a phrase, lol)

Broadly speaking, a lot of nonprofits run a lean team and/or don't have proper procedures in place to handle staff issues like harassment, discrimination, etc. For the former, you end up becoming overworked and do a bit of everyone's job and since you don't know much, you likely won't do it well the first few times. A number of higher ups will use you as their punching bag and take their anger out on you for "not doing your job properly" (never mind that you were hired to answer phones and not create a working budget for the place). You will be expected to accept this and not complain, while this will simultaneously lead to bad reviews and using internal politics against you to push you out or pull quasi, if not fully, illegal stunts (leading to the latter part of my first sentence). One of my early post-college friends was pushed out of her nonprofit after complaining that black employees and volunteers were called the n-word by higher ups in meetings. That place was a dictatorship run by a woman who took the top spot and would bully anyone out that she saw as a threat. That same woman fired my friend for speaking up about the n-word usage by the woman's work friends. Another poster mentioned harassment and preying on minority women. If you have any friends who interned or work on the Hill, they can tell you wayyyyyyy more about that. Those kids put up with a lot of abuse for low pay and the false promise of getting somewhere high up quickly.

Since you'll presumably go into nonprofit work without a college degree, be prepared to be looked down on. Even the shittiest nonprofits have a superiority complex and think credentialism and lay prestige are recognized religions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finish it out OP. 80k won’t mean very much in 10 years. You’re clearly qualified enough to get a job at a big tech firm — meaning your earning potential will outstrip that 80k very soon. Part of that earning potential could very well depend on that Ivy degree. I’ve found job interviews significantly easier with a degree on my resume.

Your bigger issue is your misery, but 3 semesters is not very long in the grand scheme of things. Please try to take classes that you want to take (art, literature, film — whatever calls to you!). If your parents are no longer paying, that should alleviate guilt about taking what you want at school and doing what you want to do. After school, try to pay off those loans as soon as you can. A boring job is not the end of the work. A boring job can enable you to do things you enjoy doing outside of work. Focus on the happy in your life, and best of luck.

OP here. I thought this too when I took my internship this summer in tech sales at a FAANG. It turns out that having a job I hate also affects my happiness outside of work -- being miserable at my job makes me unable to rest, sleep, or be happy in my waking hours outside of work. Also, if I take out $80k in loans, I'll have to work way more than 40 hrs/week to pay it off -- leaving me with little to no free time post-grad.

If I didn't have the threat of loans hanging over my head (and currently, I don't have any student loans in my name at all; I would have to take them out for my last 3 semesters at Columbia), I'd go into a low-paying but meaningful job in either publishing or environmental education. Hating a 40 hr/week job, to me, is like hating almost all of your waking hours, so I think I'm fine going to a cheaper, less prestigious school and taking on less debt so I can pursue something that makes me genuinely happy instead of hating myself at FAANG or MBB or BB IB or law school.

You can target lower comp than FAANG sale, project manager at cap1 for example, pays 90k at 3-5 year exp and you work from home for 25hr/week in their back office function (risk and ops).
Low paying job isn’t automatically meaningful. Plenty of low paying jobs have harassment, bad work environment and toxic losers who prey on minority women.
Startups also look for office managers (jack of all trades), you will do a touch of marketing, HR and product. You make around 60k but it’s enough to pay off your debt and live in the Shenandoah.
If you wait until 24 and do smith, your job prospects are going to be similar except you will be 27 and your colleagues will be 23.

+1 million

I wish young people would understand this. Those low-paying jobs have a TON of abuse and gaslighting because "don't you support the MISSION?!" is always thrown in your face when you bring it up. Lots of nonprofits are toxic cesspools hiding under a fragile veneer of respectability and build taking advantage of young and naive folks, both as employees and volunteers to churn through, into their operating model. Sotheby's/Chrtistie's are another shitshow entirely.

+2 million

This. The highest paying jobs I've had have been the easiest, and most respectful of me and my time. Not to say they weren't pretty awful at times, but it was WAY worse at lower-paying places.

+3 million

Some of the higher-paying places can be demanding, too, but damn if the mental damage from those lower-paying jobs doesn't stunt a lot of people professionally for a few years.

OP here. Can you talk more about this? No worries if it's too traumatizing for you or too painful to talk about; I've just never really heard about NPO trauma (if that's a phrase, lol)

Broadly speaking, a lot of nonprofits run a lean team and/or don't have proper procedures in place to handle staff issues like harassment, discrimination, etc. For the former, you end up becoming overworked and do a bit of everyone's job and since you don't know much, you likely won't do it well the first few times. A number of higher ups will use you as their punching bag and take their anger out on you for "not doing your job properly" (never mind that you were hired to answer phones and not create a working budget for the place). You will be expected to accept this and not complain, while this will simultaneously lead to bad reviews and using internal politics against you to push you out or pull quasi, if not fully, illegal stunts (leading to the latter part of my first sentence). One of my early post-college friends was pushed out of her nonprofit after complaining that black employees and volunteers were called the n-word by higher ups in meetings. That place was a dictatorship run by a woman who took the top spot and would bully anyone out that she saw as a threat. That same woman fired my friend for speaking up about the n-word usage by the woman's work friends. Another poster mentioned harassment and preying on minority women. If you have any friends who interned or work on the Hill, they can tell you wayyyyyyy more about that. Those kids put up with a lot of abuse for low pay and the false promise of getting somewhere high up quickly.

Since you'll presumably go into nonprofit work without a college degree, be prepared to be looked down on. Even the shittiest nonprofits have a superiority complex and think credentialism and lay prestige are recognized religions.

God that sounds like a nightmare, really sorry about your friend. Wasn't this the subject of the TV show Insecure?

I wouldn't work at an NPO before I finish college. Until I turn 24, I'm planning on just working service jobs and maybe living on a farm or WWOOFing. I'd be (maybe, if my other options don't work out) joining an NPO at 26 after I finish college.

[Anonymous]

All this over $80K?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All this over $80K?

NP here. $80k is a crippling amount of debt to come out of undergrad with. If it was law school/MBA/grad school, then $80k would be fine. But for a BA? No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’d tell your parents that you are going to transfer to a less prestigious school because you don’t want to take out loans. If they don’t get bragging rights anymore, they might change their mind about funding the Ivy.

I agree with this. Do not go $80K into debt for a college you don't even want to be at -- especially one that was so toxic for you that you contemplated suicide! There are other schools out there where you can finish your degree for much less money and hopefully a better fit. Your parents are trash for taking this approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d tell your parents that you are going to transfer to a less prestigious school because you don’t want to take out loans. If they don’t get bragging rights anymore, they might change their mind about funding the Ivy.

I agree with this. Do not go $80K into debt for a college you don't even want to be at -- especially one that was so toxic for you that you contemplated suicide! There are other schools out there where you can finish your degree for much less money and hopefully a better fit. Your parents are trash for taking this approach.

-1

OP's parent's aren't trash for taking this approach. They're 100% right that a Columbia degree will open up doors for the rest of OP's life.

OP, take the debt and finish up at Columbia. Get over your fear of "stressful, competitive" jobs (whatever the hell that means) and take that six-figure job offer after graduation so you can pay down your student loans.

Oh, and BTW, going into arts administration or non-profits or environmental education will be a decision you'll regret for the rest of your life. No question there.