Turns out, Harvard students aren’t that smart after all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

So a predominantly Asian Harvard? Ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

Again, if you're an athlete 1408 gets you right in if you're white. If you want to claim that URM is some blight on the admissions process and fairness, then own the whole thing and admit that athletic recruiting is at least equally, if not more, distorted.

Do you have any source that supports that?

read the thread - the weak academic qualities of recruited athletes is documented here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

You can't compare UC Berkeley to Harvard because the UC system is a public institution and admissions standards are subject to state laws. If AA was eliminated, Harvard, as a PRIVATE institution can base admissions on other factors to get the class that it wants using 'holistic' criteria. For example, Harvard could create a floor GPA/SAT score or even eliminate standardized testing and use other criteria such as income, geography, HS as proxies to admit students using a race-blind application. And I would argue that is direction elite colleges are going, especially Harvard that clearly doesn't want an Asian-majority student body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't see any proof in the article that those applicants were not qualified or would have been rejected. Just a statement that said they would have with no support. Just because you are an athlete, a legacy or a teacher's child...does not mean you aren't smart or have the grades or test scores.
Did those things help them get in - sure - but no support for the other.

The study itself states that a significant portion of this group would not have gotten in without the preference.

That's because brilliant white kids still need another hook to get in.

Brilliant white kids need another hook to get in because non brilliant white kids are being accepted due to their athletic abilities.

Being white is a detriment for admissions.

You can't really believe this do you? I guarantee if a white kid doesn't get in, it's not because he is white. It's because there is a more qualified, hooked, legacy white kid who took that space. Not some random person of color.

Admissions is a function of a bunch of variables -- test scores, school performance, extracurriculars, athletics, legacy, other hooks, region, random noise, and yes, ethnicity. Nobody who studies this seriously denies that race plays a major causal role in admissions. That is, given equivalence across all other dimensions, candidates of different races get different treatment. Of course given the complexity of the decision-making process you can always point to some other factor. But that's a naive way of looking at it.

This topic is so interesting because of the knots people will tie themselves into trying to deny this basic fact. But if you support AA, as I do, you need to be honest about this because otherwise it's just discrediting.

+1. It seems 95% of Americans seem to understand this and accept it. Harvard can ADMIT anyone they want, and on avg they seem to do a decent job since ppl are still complaining that that their kid didn’t get admitted even with slightly better/lower test scores. I wish Asian’s would stop complaining and go to other schools. There is this weird entitlement that they have with brand name schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

You can't compare UC Berkeley to Harvard because the UC system is a public institution and admissions standards are subject to state laws. If AA was eliminated, Harvard, as a PRIVATE institution can base admissions on other factors to get the class that it wants using 'holistic' criteria. For example, Harvard could create a floor GPA/SAT score or even eliminate standardized testing and use other criteria such as income, geography, HS as proxies to admit students using a race-blind application. And I would argue that is direction elite colleges are going, especially Harvard that clearly doesn't want an Asian-majority student body.

if AA became illegal or if the Supreme Court somehow takes up this issue and rules current practices are discriminatory, they could try something like that, but they would most likely end up paying out a lot of settlements if they did.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget the extension school, a legitimate backdoor to Harvard -

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/10/7/extension-school-scrut/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

You can't compare UC Berkeley to Harvard because the UC system is a public institution and admissions standards are subject to state laws. If AA was eliminated, Harvard, as a PRIVATE institution can base admissions on other factors to get the class that it wants using 'holistic' criteria. For example, Harvard could create a floor GPA/SAT score or even eliminate standardized testing and use other criteria such as income, geography, HS as proxies to admit students using a race-blind application. And I would argue that is direction elite colleges are going, especially Harvard that clearly doesn't want an Asian-majority student body.

if AA became illegal or if the Supreme Court somehow takes up this issue and rules current practices are discriminatory, they could try something like that, but they would most likely end up paying out a lot of settlements if they did.

Can you explain-- why would they pay settlements and to whom? My understanding is that what I suggested is legal-- the UC's do it too but it isn't very successful in getting the diversity that the system wants. Also, many gifted public K-12 programs have adopted the same tactic. This isn't considered an illegal way to get around a AA ban. I would think Harvard and other elite private schools would be more successful than the UC's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

You can't compare UC Berkeley to Harvard because the UC system is a public institution and admissions standards are subject to state laws. If AA was eliminated, Harvard, as a PRIVATE institution can base admissions on other factors to get the class that it wants using 'holistic' criteria. For example, Harvard could create a floor GPA/SAT score or even eliminate standardized testing and use other criteria such as income, geography, HS as proxies to admit students using a race-blind application. And I would argue that is direction elite colleges are going, especially Harvard that clearly doesn't want an Asian-majority student body.

if AA became illegal or if the Supreme Court somehow takes up this issue and rules current practices are discriminatory, they could try something like that, but they would most likely end up paying out a lot of settlements if they did.

Can you explain-- why would they pay settlements and to whom? My understanding is that what I suggested is legal-- the UC's do it too but it isn't very successful in getting the diversity that the system wants. Also, many gifted public K-12 programs have adopted the same tactic. This isn't considered an illegal way to get around a AA ban. I would think Harvard and other elite private schools would be more successful than the UC's.

California is dealing with a very specific state law. If, and it's such a big if that it probably isn't worth talking about, the Supreme Court does strike down race based admissions, trying to form the class in a way that gets a diverse class would be very hard without running afoul of a ban on race based admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

So a predominantly Asian Harvard? Ok.

Man this and a couple of other comments here raising the idea that a majority Asian Harvard would be a bad thing. Fear of an Asian Planet. Our society keeps raising the bar for how good Asian kids have to be to succeed and they just keep jumping right over it. If kids are going to bust their butts and achieve they should get in somewhere good. And if that means Harvard is majority Asian well, that’s interesting. Everyone takes the same tests. Frankly there is an effort level differential across Asian/non-Asian kids on average (yes we all know exceptions give me a break) that is just hard not to notice. To which we say what, thanks for trying, you’re too Asian? F that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

So a predominantly Asian Harvard? Ok.

Man this and a couple of other comments here raising the idea that a majority Asian Harvard would be a bad thing. Fear of an Asian Planet. Our society keeps raising the bar for how good Asian kids have to be to succeed and they just keep jumping right over it. If kids are going to bust their butts and achieve they should get in somewhere good. And if that means Harvard is majority Asian well, that’s interesting. Everyone takes the same tests. Frankly there is an effort level differential across Asian/non-Asian kids on average (yes we all know exceptions give me a break) that is just hard not to notice. To which we say what, thanks for trying, you’re too Asian? F that.

DP: I don’t have a problem with Harvard being majority Asian American. I think the PP was saying that will never happen. Unfortunately, I agree— at least in our lifetime. Its status as an institution of political, economic and social influence would change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's a nice story, but absent AA, a 1408 SAT score would be in the unqualified bucket for Harvard

No, you are 100% wrong, you either can't read or are in denial. I am guessing you read just fine, so....

THEY. ARE. ALL. QUALIFIED.

Harvard doesn't see strata within the qualified category as you do. They don't see it because it doesn't exist in practicality. That strata makes no difference to them.

The average African American SAT section score is a 704. If you believe that a 1408 gets you into Harvard, I have a bride to sell you.

So the data posted at 11/17/2021 15:02 is a lie?

/ps already have a bride, thanks.

1408 plus URM gets you in. 1408 and white or asian gets laughed at.

What is your point? Harvard doesn’t have to accept anyone based on SAT scores. I don’t get these arguments. Many people on this board think that Harvard’s admissions should be a merit-based and by that GPA and testing scores. Even if AA were eliminated, do you really think the Harvard student demographics would look much different?

We already have a case study with UC Berkley, and yes the demographics did change

So a predominantly Asian Harvard? Ok.

Man this and a couple of other comments here raising the idea that a majority Asian Harvard would be a bad thing. Fear of an Asian Planet. Our society keeps raising the bar for how good Asian kids have to be to succeed and they just keep jumping right over it. If kids are going to bust their butts and achieve they should get in somewhere good. And if that means Harvard is majority Asian well, that’s interesting. Everyone takes the same tests. Frankly there is an effort level differential across Asian/non-Asian kids on average (yes we all know exceptions give me a break) that is just hard not to notice. To which we say what, thanks for trying, you’re too Asian? F that.

DP: I don’t have a problem with Harvard being majority Asian American. I think the PP was saying that will never happen. Unfortunately, I agree— at least in our lifetime. Its status as an institution of political, economic and social influence would change.

I see your point. Maybe I am more addressing this to the dude upthread.

[Anonymous]

People don’t seem to understand that it isn’t just about racial and ethnic diversity it’s about diversity in its broadest sense. All states represented, many countries represented, a full cross-section of academic interests represented. If Harvard admitted all top-scoring STEM-focused strings performers, concentrated in five areas of the country, it would no longer be a fully diverse liberals arts colleges. High-achieving narrowly focused students are the best fit for MIT, Cal Tech etc.

[Anonymous]

I wonder how many of that 43% make up the 16% of students who fail to complete a degree at Harvard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People don’t seem to understand that it isn’t just about racial and ethnic diversity it’s about diversity in its broadest sense. All states represented, many countries represented, a full cross-section of academic interests represented. If Harvard admitted all top-scoring STEM-focused strings performers, concentrated in five areas of the country, it would no longer be a fully diverse liberals arts colleges. High-achieving narrowly focused students are the best fit for MIT, Cal Tech etc.

I know you didn't explicitly call out Asians, but your "high-achieving narrowly focused" is a little dog whistley. For me. And the "top-scoring STEM-focused strings performers". Wow.

I do notice there is this persistent tendency of white people (no idea what your race is btw, just commenting in general) to mentally pigeonhole and typecast Asian kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't see any proof in the article that those applicants were not qualified or would have been rejected. Just a statement that said they would have with no support. Just because you are an athlete, a legacy or a teacher's child...does not mean you aren't smart or have the grades or test scores.
Did those things help them get in - sure - but no support for the other.

The study itself states that a significant portion of this group would not have gotten in without the preference.

That's because brilliant white kids still need another hook to get in.

Brilliant white kids need another hook to get in because non brilliant white kids are being accepted due to their athletic abilities.

Being white is a detriment for admissions.

You can't really believe this do you? I guarantee if a white kid doesn't get in, it's not because he is white. It's because there is a more qualified, hooked, legacy white kid who took that space. Not some random person of color.

Admissions is a function of a bunch of variables -- test scores, school performance, extracurriculars, athletics, legacy, other hooks, region, random noise, and yes, ethnicity. Nobody who studies this seriously denies that race plays a major causal role in admissions. That is, given equivalence across all other dimensions, candidates of different races get different treatment. Of course given the complexity of the decision-making process you can always point to some other factor. But that's a naive way of looking at it.

This topic is so interesting because of the knots people will tie themselves into trying to deny this basic fact. But if you support AA, as I do, you need to be honest about this because otherwise it's just discrediting.

+1. It seems 95% of Americans seem to understand this and accept it. Harvard can ADMIT anyone they want, and on avg they seem to do a decent job since ppl are still complaining that that their kid didn’t get admitted even with slightly better/lower test scores. I wish Asian’s would stop complaining and go to other schools. There is this weird entitlement that they have with brand name schools.

Entitlement is when you are less qualified and feel you have to bring in non-merit characteristics to demand you be admitted.