Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.
You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.
And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.
Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.
Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.
Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?
You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.
Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?
Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?
It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?
And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.
Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.
And your slavery references are stupid.
Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV
Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.
Israel not looking so hot right now
Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.
Right? They literally have slaves. Dubai is not democratic in the slightest. Odd comparison.
Israel is not democratic either. Only some people have the right to vote, circular 1964 USA. Everyone I know who has visited Israel, including several Jews, have come back with the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. The last person I know who visited in 2015, said he wasn’t allowed to go anywhere near Gaza. It was off limits to foreigners. It might have been the West Bank, either way it was off limits to foreigners.
West Bank and Gaza are not free, but Israel is a democracy. Flawed, but a democracy nonetheless.
Democracies do not hold a 1/3 of their population in camps or only apply human right if you are the correct religion. One vote one person.
repeating it over and over and over does not make it true.
No but I makes it easy for gullible uneducated people to remember. It’s call and repeat.
Gaza is not a camp. Gaza isn’t even part of Israel.
Yet Israel controls the movement of Palestinians in Gaza, their access to food, water, fuel, electricity, land, sea and air. And Israel has them corralled by a concrete wall with double wire fences. But IsRaeL DoES NoT CoNtrOl GaZa aNd GAza iS NoT a CAmp.
For Christ sake. Isreal has a border it controls. Yes. Egypt has another.
Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.
I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.
Yeah. Because the world hates Jewish people. A terrorist organization can literally butcher them and the world will say they deserved it.
Extremist Jewish people hate Jewish people. More Jewish people die at the hands of their army and police than from the world.
So your response to the world hating Jewish people is that Jewish “extremists” hate their own. Alrighty then.
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.
Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.
I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.
Yeah. Because the world hates Jewish people. A terrorist organization can literally butcher them and the world will say they deserved it.
Extremist Jewish people hate Jewish people. More Jewish people die at the hands of their army and police than from the world.
So your response to the world hating Jewish people is that Jewish “extremists” hate their own. Alrighty then.
No he means Isreal is responsible for existence of Hamas
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.
It’s ridiculous because there’s plenty to criticize Bibi for.
But using these terms just make them sound stupid.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Actually the opposite, a number of Fatah officials praised the attack and called for West Bank Palestinians to join in.
So, as someone who is following along, when an Israeli commits an acknowledged atrocity, there is condemnation in Israel and punishment but when Palestinians commit acknowledged atrocities there is either silence from Palestinian leaders or praise for the atrocities?
Please explain why I am supposed to believe that the Palestinian response is the correct one? It seems to me that the group that punishes its own for atrocities has far great moral standing than the one that praises those atrocities.
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.
I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.
I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Actually the opposite, a number of Fatah officials praised the attack and called for West Bank Palestinians to join in.
So, as someone who is following along, when an Israeli commits an acknowledged atrocity, there is condemnation in Israel and punishment but when Palestinians commit acknowledged atrocities there is either silence from Palestinian leaders or praise for the atrocities?
Please explain why I am supposed to believe that the Palestinian response is the correct one? It seems to me that the group that punishes its own for atrocities has far great moral standing than the one that praises those atrocities.
This is very important.
I do NOT believe all Palestinians are extremists, but how is this supposed to end when ZERO Palestinian officials (that I’m aware of) disavow Hamas?
Bibi is horrible, but Haaretz runs critical op Ed’s of him nearly every day. Benny Gantz and his party will oust him as soon as they can.
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
This is so spot on. The response among the progressive left to the barbaric atrocities that occurred on 10/7 has genuinely shaken me. I'm not Jewish. I identify as a liberal. But the utter lack of empathy and understanding is shocking and inexcusable.
Pro-Palestine posters can come in here and accuse pro-isreal posters of wanting a genocide, but flip it around and you’ll get censored? I see. I guess Hamas doesn’t want a genocide??? It’s in the damn charter.
Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.
The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:
I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.
This is so spot on. The response among the progressive left to the barbaric atrocities that occurred on 10/7 has genuinely shaken me. I'm not Jewish. I identify as a liberal. But the utter lack of empathy and understanding is shocking and inexcusable.
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