Looks like a new Gaza war has started

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Yup. No way I will vote for Biden if he sends American troops to Israel. American taxpayer is already working very hard to send billions of dollars to Israel, on top of that we don’t want to sacrifice our kids for Israel. If Biden is so desperate then he can send his own grandkids.

Totally agree. It's time for table talk not war. Foreign interference should focus on negotiations and humanitarian aid, not war and supporting sides.

Unless the negotiations lead to the death of Hamas leaders, I don't see why Israel would be interested.

Israel would be interested because in that region, Israel is NOTHING without U.S support, if Israel want to wager a war with Arabs on it’s own then they go right ahead. Without U.S support we can find out exactly how that goes.

All of Israel’s talk, posturing, actions are based on the premise that U.S will be supporting then, the question will be to what extent the support will be given.

Do you think Biden is going to do anything to distance the US from Israel? The same Biden retreating from his $6 billion hostage deal as fast as he possibly can

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Yup. No way I will vote for Biden if he sends American troops to Israel. American taxpayer is already working very hard to send billions of dollars to Israel, on top of that we don’t want to sacrifice our kids for Israel. If Biden is so desperate then he can send his own grandkids.

Totally agree. It's time for table talk not war. Foreign interference should focus on negotiations and humanitarian aid, not war and supporting sides.

Unless the negotiations lead to the death of Hamas leaders, I don't see why Israel would be interested.

Israel would be interested because in that region, Israel is NOTHING without U.S support, if Israel want to wager a war with Arabs on it’s own then they go right ahead. Without U.S support we can find out exactly how that goes.

All of Israel’s talk, posturing, actions are based on the premise that U.S will be supporting then, the question will be to what extent the support will be given.

Do you think Biden is going to do anything to distance the US from Israel? The same Biden retreating from his $6 billion hostage deal as fast as he possibly can

Okay, then let’s get back to work. American taxpayers are working in servitude to the State of Israel, thanks to our politicians. Now, let’s sacrifice our kids also because billions of dollars were not enough.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Perhaps the worst thing that could happen is for Israel to loose the support of American Jews.
Bombing a school where refugees were told to gather and that had 4000 people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Israel is like Will Smith on Oscar's night. Upset, and very rightly so. But just wanting to slap someone, long-term consequences be damned.

and then we find out two years later that they'd been divorced for over five years?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

Now y’all want mercy? (NP)

No, we want Israel to not indiscriminately kill civilians in Gaza. Why do you think this is permissible?

Hamas, tolerated by Palestinians, indiscriminately murdered over a thousand Jews. Why do you think this is permissible? FWIW. I am not a Jew and have never been a big fan of Israel. Oct. 6 changed my mind!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the worst thing that could happen is for Israel to loose the support of American Jews.
Bombing a school where refugees were told to gather and that had 4000 people

Evangelicals support Israel almost in spite of the Jews. Hawks in both parties support it because they are a traditional ally and are fighting terrorists. I don't think Israel actually needs American Jews to support them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the worst thing that could happen is for Israel to loose the support of American Jews.
Bombing a school where refugees were told to gather and that had 4000 people

Evangelicals support Israel almost in spite of the Jews. Hawks in both parties support it because they are a traditional ally and are fighting terrorists. I don't think Israel actually needs American Jews to support them

Evangelicals are not exactly that kind of political group.
Both sides have committed war crimes, fortunately Biden said US troops will not go and fight this war.
Does someone still think that this will end with the borders of Gaza being redrawn and destruction of Hamas and eternal peace

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

Now y’all want mercy? (NP)

No, we want Israel to not indiscriminately kill civilians in Gaza. Why do you think this is permissible?

Hamas, tolerated by Palestinians, indiscriminately murdered over a thousand Jews. Why do you think this is permissible? FWIW. I am not a Jew and have never been a big fan of Israel. Oct. 6 changed my mind!

This is a completely disingenuous and bad-faith argument, and you are putting words in my mouth. I've said repeatedly in this exact chain that Hamas' actions were abhorrent terrorist acts. Nobody is defending Hamas and what they did to Israeli civilians and no one is saying that's permissible.

You can condemn that and also condemn the scope of Israel's retaliation, which is indiscriminately bombing civilians in Gaza (who have no escape route from Gaza) in addition to starving them and denying them humanitarian aid and basic life-sustaining supplies. Those are war crimes. If you support those actions, you are supporting war crimes.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Yup. No way I will vote for Biden if he sends American troops to Israel. American taxpayer is already working very hard to send billions of dollars to Israel, on top of that we don’t want to sacrifice our kids for Israel. If Biden is so desperate then he can send his own grandkids.

Totally agree. It's time for table talk not war. Foreign interference should focus on negotiations and humanitarian aid, not war and supporting sides.

Unless the negotiations lead to the death of Hamas leaders, I don't see why Israel would be interested.

Israel would be interested because in that region, Israel is NOTHING without U.S support, if Israel want to wager a war with Arabs on it’s own then they go right ahead. Without U.S support we can find out exactly how that goes.

All of Israel’s talk, posturing, actions are based on the premise that U.S will be supporting then, the question will be to what extent the support will be given.

Do you think Biden is going to do anything to distance the US from Israel? The same Biden retreating from his $6 billion hostage deal as fast as he possibly can

The Iran deal is proceeding as agreed to. The easing of Iranian sanctions is also proceeding as agreed to. Can't afford a collapse of oil prices and chaos in order to appease Bibi's nationalist dreams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Hahahahaha

In theory. There's no way that, facing down an another, real-life ground war (especially in the Middle East), the American public is going to support it. Look at what's going on in Ukraine.

Why do you assume that it would be a real-life ground war?

Wars are won on the ground. Ask the US how it did in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The only way for Israel, a country with a very small population, is either compromise or go Nuclear.

Nah. If the objective is to keep Syria out of the war, the US can eliminate their leadership from a distance. One of those carriers could get rid of what is left of the Syrian army relatively quickly. We could recognize one of the militias as the legitimate government and never have a soldier on the ground. You need boots on the ground if you care about rebuilding a country, if the goal is to just prevent them from intervening in a war then you can decapitate the government and leave what is left to deal with the chaos left behind.

You live in some kind of fantasy world where you think you are going to eliminate Syria's leadership, and Lebanon's leadership and Iran's leadership, level the region, create hundreds of millions of refugees, and maintain free flow of oil without boots on the ground. You are going to need a draft actually.

Who said Lebanon and Iran? Syria already has refugees. Turkey is keeping its border closed and the rest of the world does not care. Lebanon does not have a functional government. Hezbollah is the de fact government in Southern Lebanon and they are staying on the sidelines. They are doing the bare minimum to maintain credibility and not even a tiny bit more. The hope with Hamas was they they would be more interested in governing than terror. That hope was utterly misplaced, but it looks like Hezbollah may have gone that route.

All right Pollyanna, try containing it to "take Syrian leadership out" which we have not been able to do in a decade despite many attempts.

We've never really attempted it because a weak Assad in charge of a rump state is great for us.

Of course the multiple attempted assassination attacks on Assad were never attempted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the worst thing that could happen is for Israel to loose the support of American Jews.
Bombing a school where refugees were told to gather and that had 4000 people

Evangelicals support Israel almost in spite of the Jews. Hawks in both parties support it because they are a traditional ally and are fighting terrorists. I don't think Israel actually needs American Jews to support them

Evangelical voters are about 23% of the electorate but are very important in the Bible Belt. Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, West Virginia and Virginia with sizable parts of: Florida, Louisiana, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, New Mexico, Ohio and Texas.

The Jewish vote at most is 9% in New York and 6% in New Jersey. After that there are a few regional or really cities where Jewish vote impact local and maybe a congressional seat.

The Jewish vote by itself just does not have the numbers behind it to impact US national elections.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Yup. No way I will vote for Biden if he sends American troops to Israel. American taxpayer is already working very hard to send billions of dollars to Israel, on top of that we don’t want to sacrifice our kids for Israel. If Biden is so desperate then he can send his own grandkids.

Totally agree. It's time for table talk not war. Foreign interference should focus on negotiations and humanitarian aid, not war and supporting sides.

Unless the negotiations lead to the death of Hamas leaders, I don't see why Israel would be interested.

Israel would be interested because in that region, Israel is NOTHING without U.S support, if Israel want to wager a war with Arabs on it’s own then they go right ahead. Without U.S support we can find out exactly how that goes.

All of Israel’s talk, posturing, actions are based on the premise that U.S will be supporting then, the question will be to what extent the support will be given.

Do you think Biden is going to do anything to distance the US from Israel? The same Biden retreating from his $6 billion hostage deal as fast as he possibly can

The Iran deal is proceeding as agreed to. The easing of Iranian sanctions is also proceeding as agreed to. Can't afford a collapse of oil prices and chaos in order to appease Bibi's nationalist dreams.

You should ask the NYT for a correction

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/world/middleeast/us-qatar-iran-prisoner-deal.html

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Why do people keep identifying Hamas with all who live on Gaza? Yes they are there, yes they are Arab/Palestinian. No they are not 100% of the population living on Gaza and you can condemn Hamas without suggesting all Palestinians are barbarians. Why is this such a problem for Jewish people? I mean I condemn the Hamas attacks. I do not support Israel's right to kill everyone on Gaza which is essentially what they are doing. Allies of Israel claim it's not but look at what's happening. It sure is. You are killing everyone there which amounts to killing all Palestinians, Hamas or not. It is every bit as tragic as Hamas killing innocents because Israel is knowingly killing innocents as well. You just can't say well we want to kill Hamas so it makes killing innocent people OK. It's not. It's never OK. EVER. To do it accidentally or because there's no way around it is different than simply dropping bombs to wipe out as many as you can at once. You really think this is about Hamas? It's about wiping the Palestinian people off the face of the earth. It's sick. As sick as Hamas.

Your point seems to be that Israel defending itself is sick.

The point is that war crimes are sick, even when Israel is the perpetrator.

The point seems to be that anything Israel does to defend itself is a “war crime.”

So Israel is allowed to do anything it wants in defense of it's security? I'm sure you'd be applauding if Israel nuked Gaza, which is what they seem to be doing in small doses. It's like you and the pro-Israel people have blinders one. Nothing Israel does is wrong. God's chosen people are infallible. Everything they do is justified, including killing and stealing land from West Bank Palestinians. Israel's murder of 13,000 Palestinians is viewed as negligible and inconsequential compared to Hamas' murder of 1,400 Israelis.

+1. Israel suffered a terrorist attack. It was brutal and very sad, and I am so sorry for the families and people affected. Obviously they didn’t deserve what happened to them.

That said, the Israeli government’s plan to essentially carpet-bomb Gaza and withhold basic supplies like food, water, and power from the entire strip, is a war crime against the civilian population. They and everyone else know that this plan is going to indiscriminately kill Palestinian civilians (who are not Hamas). And their warnings to civilians to evacuate the northern part of the strip are pretty hollow. There are civilians there who cannot evacuate, as the UN pointed out. And there’s nowhere to go. They’re still bombing the southern part.

War crimes aren’t permissible just because it’s “self-defense” and it’s totally disingenuous to say that it’s antisemitic to point that out. Israel doesn’t get a pass on that because they suffered a terrorist attack.

So, if you agree that Hamas is a terrorist entity guilty of war crimes that does not serve the Palestinian people, what should Israel do?

Not commit additional war crimes in its response? Why is this controversial?

What are we asking Israelis to do something American's wouldn't? So far deaths in Gaza and in the thousands. The body count Americans exacted after 9/11 (including from an uninvolved country just because) ran into the hundreds of thousands

This is a reductionist, and a frankly bad, argument. Many of us think the U.S. response to 9/11 was also wrong. And I think the 20+ years of history since then has clearly proved that it was the wrong reaction.

OK. And I'm sure Israel is willing to suffer the same consequences that the US government and military suffered for those hundreds of thousands of civilians- i.e. none.

Unfortunately for Israel, it's not the U.S. and its geopolitical reality is that it's surrounded by hostile neighbors who are apparently willing to join the hostilities under the right circumstances. So it actually might see some pretty bad consequences.

Fortunately for Israel, the US cares more about Israeli security than it's hostile neighbors existence and the US has experience toppling middle eastern governments and letting countries descend into lawless hell holes. Do you think the Jordanian government looks at Iraq and thinking that looks fun?

Are you suggesting that the U.S. is going to topple Middle Eastern governments in defense of Israel? It will not. There's not popular support for that, and that's a good thing.

Have you seen the polling? Americans would absolutely support going to war with any country that tries to intervene against Israel and the US going to war would topple that government

Not if Biden wants to win. No chance in hell would I vote for him if there's American boots on the ground in Israel or Gaza.

Yup. No way I will vote for Biden if he sends American troops to Israel. American taxpayer is already working very hard to send billions of dollars to Israel, on top of that we don’t want to sacrifice our kids for Israel. If Biden is so desperate then he can send his own grandkids.

Totally agree. It's time for table talk not war. Foreign interference should focus on negotiations and humanitarian aid, not war and supporting sides.

Unless the negotiations lead to the death of Hamas leaders, I don't see why Israel would be interested.

Israel would be interested because in that region, Israel is NOTHING without U.S support, if Israel want to wager a war with Arabs on it’s own then they go right ahead. Without U.S support we can find out exactly how that goes.

All of Israel’s talk, posturing, actions are based on the premise that U.S will be supporting then, the question will be to what extent the support will be given.

Do you think Biden is going to do anything to distance the US from Israel? The same Biden retreating from his $6 billion hostage deal as fast as he possibly can

The Iran deal is proceeding as agreed to. The easing of Iranian sanctions is also proceeding as agreed to. Can't afford a collapse of oil prices and chaos in order to appease Bibi's nationalist dreams.

You should ask the NYT for a correction

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/world/middleeast/us-qatar-iran-prisoner-deal.html

You should ask the Qatari government for a correction.

https://www.barrons.com/news/qatar-committed-to-iran-funds-deal-in-us-prisoner-exchange-3c801126

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the worst thing that could happen is for Israel to loose the support of American Jews.
Bombing a school where refugees were told to gather and that had 4000 people

Evangelicals support Israel almost in spite of the Jews. Hawks in both parties support it because they are a traditional ally and are fighting terrorists. I don't think Israel actually needs American Jews to support them

Evangelicals are not exactly that kind of political group.
Both sides have committed war crimes, fortunately Biden said US troops will not go and fight this war.
Does someone still think that this will end with the borders of Gaza being redrawn and destruction of Hamas and eternal peace

There are reports that US military personnel have been give deployment notices. Many are saying they are going to Israel, Gaza or surrounding countries. It is about 2,000 troops which would do really nothing unless it is an advanced units. Who knows but Biden seems to be up for US troops on the ground in Gaza. Fighting for the Israelis.

About 2,000 U.S. troops have been put on prepare-to-deploy orders for possible support to Israel, according to a defense official.

The troops are not being sent anywhere yet, nor would they necessarily go to Israel or Gaza. If they were deployed, they would go to a nearby country to be prepared to support Israel in the war against Hamas, the official said.

These who received the orders were already on 96-hour prepare-to-deploy status, which has now been shortened to 24 hours.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/2000-us-troops-told-prepare-deployment-response-israel-hamas-war-rcna120694