Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.
You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.
And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.
Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.
Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.
Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?
You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.
Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?
Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?
It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?
And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.
Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.
And your slavery references are stupid.
Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV
Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.
Israel not looking so hot right now
Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.
Right? They literally have slaves. Dubai is not democratic in the slightest. Odd comparison.
Israel is not democratic either. Only some people have the right to vote, circular 1964 USA. Everyone I know who has visited Israel, including several Jews, have come back with the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. The last person I know who visited in 2015, said he wasn’t allowed to go anywhere near Gaza. It was off limits to foreigners. It might have been the West Bank, either way it was off limits to foreigners.
West Bank and Gaza are not free, but Israel is a democracy. Flawed, but a democracy nonetheless.
As president of the United States, Biden cannot afford to back Israel’s total freedom of action in Gaza. He cannot assume that Israeli aims fully coincide with those of the United States. As Biden himself had noted, this is the most extreme government in Israel’s history, with prominent Jewish supremacist ministers whose stated aims conflict with both U.S. interests and values and seek an opportunity to expel Palestinians from what they see as the land of Israel, including Gaza. And Netanyahu is known to have attempted over the years to draw the United States into a war with Iran, something that’s decidedly not in the United States’ interests.[/quote]
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/bidens-dangerous-stance-on-the-war-in-israel-and-gaza/
Anonymous wrote:Israel has closed off Gaza to journalists and destroyed Gaza's internet all in an attempt to hide the ongoing genocide. Israel's quest for revenge and bloodlust won't be satiated until the West Bank and Gaza are purged of Palestinians. This was always the end goal - purge the land of non-Jews to fulfill Israel's desire for a Jewish homeland
BS. Journalists are not safe in Gaza. And, the internet was cut off so terrorists won't have the means to communicate.
Neither are Palestinian children. But that seems like an acceptable trade?
This is the last time I’m going to ask: what do you think should happen? Should Hamas be allowed to continue to run Gaza?
Hard truth is that that is not for us to decide
Should what is going on now continue to happen?
You’re right, it was for Israel to decide after Hamas attacked them. They decided.
That is like saying it was for Japanese to decide after Pearl Harbor. Israel is to blame for all of this. Before Israel was created Jews and Palestinians lived in peace. Now it is Israel killing Palestinians and stealing land. Sickening.
No hun. It’s like saying it was for the US to decide after Pearl Harbor.
So I guess the US should have just tried talking to the Japanese or the Germans.
Israel is not the good guy. They have a long history of killing Palestinians because they think they are racially superior. You can not say Oct 7 is the start of this. This is what Israel has done since it was created- killing Palestinians and take their land.
Is Hamas the good guy? Does there need to be a good guy?
Hamas is not the Palestinian people. With all of you equating all Palestinians as Hamas, you may as say you are all January Sixers, you are all white supremacist and members supporters of the KKK because you’re white and American. Is the worst of your society a true representation of your personal beliefs.
This is a tricky one to assert, honestly. I'm having trouble with this claim given that Hamas members are Palestinian and receive support from the populace. I don't believe them to be "the same" as the general populace, but there is not as much 'distance' as I would personally like to support your claim. Appreciate thoughts on this.
DP. It is tricky, but remember that half of the population are children born after Hamas came to power. There are many innocent people dying right now. I’m not going to suggest otherwise even though I support Israel’s continued existence. I wish Hamas had not attacked and escalated this. I hope for a better future for everyone.
And again? Are all Israeli’s the bad guys or just part of the population? Anti-Israel posters don’t seem to distinguish there, but make sure we distinguish among Palestinians. Pretty hypocritical. Especially given how loudly many Jews and Israelis have been protesting against their government.
Not Israelies, the Israeli government. It’s like not the soldiers that should have been hated during the Vietnam conflict, but the USA government that supported the French continued colonialism that kicked off the conflict in the first place.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.
You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.
And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.
Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.
Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.
Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?
You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.
Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?
Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?
It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?
And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.
Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.
And your slavery references are stupid.
Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV
Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.
Israel not looking so hot right now
Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.
Right? They literally have slaves. Dubai is not democratic in the slightest. Odd comparison.
Israel is not democratic either. Only some people have the right to vote, circular 1964 USA. Everyone I know who has visited Israel, including several Jews, have come back with the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. The last person I know who visited in 2015, said he wasn’t allowed to go anywhere near Gaza. It was off limits to foreigners. It might have been the West Bank, either way it was off limits to foreigners.
West Bank and Gaza are not free, but Israel is a democracy. Flawed, but a democracy nonetheless.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Israel is being controlled and operated by European Jews who survived the European genocide not Sephardic Jews.
80% of all Jews are Ashkenazi. That’s what you mean with your pejorative “European.” We are half European, half Middle Eastern.
Yes. The middle eastern half is closely genetically related to Palestinians. And the European half is bc of inter-breeding with European countries. What does this mean to you? To me it means that Palestinians have ancient historical ties to the land that Israel sits on today. I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist as well. Do I know how to achieve this - no. But I do know that co tinier bombing and killing people with a right to live where they are living is not the answer.
And Jews don’t have historical ties to the land? What BS that you acknowledge one but not the other.
Please read my post again. That is not what o wrote. I said “I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist also.” In other words. I’m acknowledging both have rights and both populations are closely genetically related (except the Jewish half that left and interbred). It seems you are the one acknowledging one and not the other of you mean that Palestinians don’t have a right to the land but Jews do?
Your post only mentioned a Palestinian claim to the land.
Thinking Israel should exist is different than acknowledging Jews have also been there for thousands of years.
Aren’t your posts only acknowledging the Jewish claim to the land? What I am saying is that both Jews and Muslims have ancient ties to the land.
& yes, some Palestinians cannot accept that fact and want Israel to be gone.
But is that a reason to kill all Palestinians? Are all Palestinians are inherently evil and hate all Jews? I have met Palestinians and I’m half of Jewish descent and they don’t seem to act in a hateful way to me at all. Is this your true belief? Have you ever met anyone from Gaza or the West Bank to personally verify this? Let’s remember the Nazis were German.
Can you consider that there may be other reasons why they feel they cannot coexist with Israel?
A PP above said Hamas stuck the first blow (or fired the first shot, I’m forgetting the exact wording) on 10/7. What they did was horrific but should this be called the first shot? There are many many sources of data that shows this isn’t the case and that Palestinian deaths have outnumbered Israeli over the years of Israel’s existence. See below:
Israel wants to restart the clock on 10/7 to better claim victimhood. It's like nothing happened before 10/7 and Hamas just randomly threw a dart on a map and it landed on Israel.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.
You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.
And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.
Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.
Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.
Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?
You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.
Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?
Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?
It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?
And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.
Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.
And your slavery references are stupid.
Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV
Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.
Israel not looking so hot right now
Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.
Right? They literally have slaves. Dubai is not democratic in the slightest. Odd comparison.
Israel is not democratic either. Only some people have the right to vote, circular 1964 USA. Everyone I know who has visited Israel, including several Jews, have come back with the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. The last person I know who visited in 2015, said he wasn’t allowed to go anywhere near Gaza. It was off limits to foreigners. It might have been the West Bank, either way it was off limits to foreigners.
West Bank and Gaza are not free, but Israel is a democracy. Flawed, but a democracy nonetheless.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Actually the opposite, a number of Fatah officials praised the attack and called for West Bank Palestinians to join in.
Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.
A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.
They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.
Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.
Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Kahane was charged and convicted.
More about Goldstein and Kahane:
In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."
The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]
Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?
Actually the opposite, a number of Fatah officials praised the attack and called for West Bank Palestinians to join in.
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