College Football--Big Ten Expansion

[Anonymous]

(OP again)

Rather than argue the case for UCal-Berkeley by denigrating existing Big Ten Conference member schools and by addressing a secondary issue, why not think more creatively ?

I suggested to Stanford that if Stanford can convince its good friend Notre Dame to join, then, with Notre Dame's endorsement & commitment, Stanford would almost certainly be welcomed with open arms.

I also suggested that the Big Ten Conference offer Notre Dame an additional home gain to entice ND to join the Big Ten Conference as well as a commitment by the Big Ten Conference to offer membership to one of its traditional rivals (Stanford University).

The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.

Why do UCal-Berkeley supporters think that they can generate an offer by denigrating other universities ? It won't work.

Everyone regards UCal-Berkely & Stanford University as world class academic & academic research institutions and more. That just is not the issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

Stanford and Cal dropping big-time football and joining the Ivy League would be incredible! They'd never actually agree to join a crappy league like the Ivy but it is fun to think about for Stanford from my perspective.

Interesting post.

Decades ago (about 1980), the Ivy League targeted Northwestern University and the US Military Academy at West Point for membership. Northwestern stopped the conversation due to the travel burden that would be placed upon its athletes & athletic teams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The research element of this thread is a red herring. Big Ten is primarily interested in media market value.

PP had an interesting point earlier that got lost in the Cal rabbit hole. What made ASU and Utah attractive to the Big 12 once Arizona and BYU were already on board? Not going after a vulnerable Cal, which would be at the very top of the Big 12 academically and at least loosely opens a huge media market and recruiting state, seems like a mistake even if sports are only kind of popular there and with their big alumni base. We talk about the B1G possibly wanting to get into Texas in the future but the Big 12 is passing on a pretty easy opportunity to break into Cali versus taking second schools states like in Arizona and Utah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

Is this a reference to the Federal Government's National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report ?

Yes. The source of all strange funding stats.

Why are they "strange" ? Because they don't suit your agenda ?

If you go to the NSF page, you can get breakdowns of the R&D funding expenditures. Some schools have medical school R&D Expenditures included while others do not for various reasons--which apply to all of the 1,000 or so schools contained in the report.

Understand that almost all research dollars are brought in by graduate programs--not 100%, but the overwhelming majority.

UCal-Berkeley enthusiasts also complain each year about the school's ranking in US News. All of the schools are judged by the same standards, yet Cal fans think that it should be treated differently. Fine. US News also gives a public university ranking which rates UC-Berkeley quite high.

I understand the disappointment and frustration of UCal-Berkeley & Stanford supporters. The collapse of the Pac-12 after 108 years likely will have a serious, noticeable impact upon both schools. Nobody is rejoicing; in fact, many are working hard to figure out a solution. However, ignorance based denigration existing Big Ten Conference members is probably not the best tactic to charm the Big Ten Conference into extending an offer.

My comment was in sarcasm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

Is this a reference to the Federal Government's National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report ?

Yes. The source of all strange funding stats.

Why are they "strange" ? Because they don't suit your agenda ?

If you go to the NSF page, you can get breakdowns of the R&D funding expenditures. Some schools have medical school R&D Expenditures included while others do not for various reasons--which apply to all of the 1,000 or so schools contained in the report.

Understand that almost all research dollars are brought in by graduate programs--not 100%, but the overwhelming majority.

UCal-Berkeley enthusiasts also complain each year about the school's ranking in US News. All of the schools are judged by the same standards, yet Cal fans think that it should be treated differently. Fine. US News also gives a public university ranking which rates UC-Berkeley quite high.

I understand the disappointment and frustration of UCal-Berkeley & Stanford supporters. The collapse of the Pac-12 after 108 years likely will have a serious, noticeable impact upon both schools. Nobody is rejoicing; in fact, many are working hard to figure out a solution. However, ignorance based denigration existing Big Ten Conference members is probably not the best tactic to charm the Big Ten Conference into extending an offer.

My comment was in sarcasm.

My apology as I missed the tone of your post. (You should have winked or, at least, kicked me under the table as a heads up.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Internally funded research largely comes from reallocating tuition to research.

Unless you have an 18 billion dollar endowment.l,,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

You missed my point. I understand this is all about athletic money and have pointed that out. I was simply disagreeing with the people who are arguing R&D expenditure is a sole proxy for academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The research element of this thread is a red herring. Big Ten is primarily interested in media market value.

PP had an interesting point earlier that got lost in the Cal rabbit hole. What made ASU and Utah attractive to the Big 12 once Arizona and BYU were already on board? Not going after a vulnerable Cal, which would be at the very top of the Big 12 academically and at least loosely opens a huge media market and recruiting state, seems like a mistake even if sports are only kind of popular there and with their big alumni base. We talk about the B1G possibly wanting to get into Texas in the future but the Big 12 is passing on a pretty easy opportunity to break into Cali versus taking second schools states like in Arizona and Utah.

The University of Utah has a solid football program and a loyal fan base.

ASU has an enormous alumni base, located in a very significant media market, and Arizona politics/Arizona based rivalry.

Earlier today, I suggested that Cal & Stanford consider applying for membership in the Big 12 Conference. Culturally, neither fit, but this is more about survival than fit at this stage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

You missed my point. I understand this is all about athletic money and have pointed that out. I was simply disagreeing with the people who are arguing R&D expenditure is a sole proxy for academics.

Not sure that anybody other than the initial Cal supporter took that stance.

[Anonymous]

“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:(OP again)

Rather than argue the case for UCal-Berkeley by denigrating existing Big Ten Conference member schools and by addressing a secondary issue, why not think more creatively ?

I suggested to Stanford that if Stanford can convince its good friend Notre Dame to join, then, with Notre Dame's endorsement & commitment, Stanford would almost certainly be welcomed with open arms.

I also suggested that the Big Ten Conference offer Notre Dame an additional home gain to entice ND to join the Big Ten Conference as well as a commitment by the Big Ten Conference to offer membership to one of its traditional rivals (Stanford University).

The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.

Why do UCal-Berkeley supporters think that they can generate an offer by denigrating other universities ? It won't work.

Everyone regards UCal-Berkely & Stanford University as world class academic & academic research institutions and more. That just is not the issue.

I'm a Stanford and Maryland supporter based on school and spousal faculty employment but the B1G homers here are borderline crazy talking about how Berkeley or Cal or whatever you want to call the school would fit into the B1G academically. UCLA and Washington are great new additions, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Northwestern are also strong, but most schools in the conference are not on Cal's level as overall universities.

The situation for Stanford and UC Berkeley is unfortunate but I remember going to multiple Rose Bowls over the last 10 years that were not even close to half Stanford fans. It was awesome seeing Stanford kill Iowa live (and the insane Farmers Only halftime show by the band after Stanford was up 30+) but Iowa traveled SO much better (probably 70% of the stadium). Stanford couldn't sell out a small Stanford Stadium with a top 10 team and Andrew Luck or Christian McCaffrey. Stanford has great sports that students and most alumni just barely care about. That doesn't cut it in the current environment since Stanford isn't big enough to meaningfully deliver the Bay Area market and doesn't have the eyeballs to justify major streaming $$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Not an uncommon sentiment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Maybe in your dreams lol. With a fanbase like Notre Dame's, you won't be seeing that happen. Ever.

[Anonymous]

“ I also suggested that the Big Ten Conference offer Notre Dame an additional home gain to entice ND to join the Big Ten Conference as well as a commitment by the Big Ten Conference to offer membership to one of its traditional rivals (Stanford University).”

Domers think their school is something so special that the B1G should make all kinds of concessions to have the privilege of their brand in the conference. That ship has sailed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Maybe in your dreams lol. With a fanbase like Notre Dame's, you won't be seeing that happen. Ever.

The fan base won’t be too large while playing the sisters of the poor each week.