College Football--Big Ten Expansion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(OP again)

Rather than argue the case for UCal-Berkeley by denigrating existing Big Ten Conference member schools and by addressing a secondary issue, why not think more creatively ?

I suggested to Stanford that if Stanford can convince its good friend Notre Dame to join, then, with Notre Dame's endorsement & commitment, Stanford would almost certainly be welcomed with open arms.

I also suggested that the Big Ten Conference offer Notre Dame an additional home gain to entice ND to join the Big Ten Conference as well as a commitment by the Big Ten Conference to offer membership to one of its traditional rivals (Stanford University).

The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.

Why do UCal-Berkeley supporters think that they can generate an offer by denigrating other universities ? It won't work.

Everyone regards UCal-Berkely & Stanford University as world class academic & academic research institutions and more. That just is not the issue.

I'm a Stanford and Maryland supporter based on school and spousal faculty employment but the B1G homers here are borderline crazy talking about how Berkeley or Cal or whatever you want to call the school would fit into the B1G academically. UCLA and Washington are great new additions, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Northwestern are also strong, but most schools in the conference are not on Cal's level as overall universities.

The situation for Stanford and UC Berkeley is unfortunate but I remember going to multiple Rose Bowls over the last 10 years that were not even close to half Stanford fans. It was awesome seeing Stanford kill Iowa live (and the insane Farmers Only halftime show by the band after Stanford was up 30+) but Iowa traveled SO much better (probably 70% of the stadium). Stanford couldn't sell out a small Stanford Stadium with a top 10 team and Andrew Luck or Christian McCaffrey. Stanford has great sports that students and most alumni just barely care about. That doesn't cut it in the current environment since Stanford isn't big enough to meaningfully deliver the Bay Area market and doesn't have the eyeballs to justify major streaming $$.

Great points. Interesting observations.

If I may, I would like to guess at your occupation based on the above bolded statements. Russian diplomat ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Freezing ND out would be an interesting tactic. The B1G doesn't need ND at all (no B1G schools have ND as their top rival) and their ACC deal has been a bit of a slap on the face too.
I don't see any upside in scheduling them for most B1G schools with maybe the exception of Purdue.
There is financial upside in having ND join the B1G though and I'm all for that! It would make the rich even richer and is a big plus for future deals when the $$ might not be as flush as it is now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(OP again)

Rather than argue the case for UCal-Berkeley by denigrating existing Big Ten Conference member schools and by addressing a secondary issue, why not think more creatively ?

I suggested to Stanford that if Stanford can convince its good friend Notre Dame to join, then, with Notre Dame's endorsement & commitment, Stanford would almost certainly be welcomed with open arms.

I also suggested that the Big Ten Conference offer Notre Dame an additional home gain to entice ND to join the Big Ten Conference as well as a commitment by the Big Ten Conference to offer membership to one of its traditional rivals (Stanford University).

The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.

Why do UCal-Berkeley supporters think that they can generate an offer by denigrating other universities ? It won't work.

Everyone regards UCal-Berkely & Stanford University as world class academic & academic research institutions and more. That just is not the issue.

I'm a Stanford and Maryland supporter based on school and spousal faculty employment but the B1G homers here are borderline crazy talking about how Berkeley or Cal or whatever you want to call the school would fit into the B1G academically. UCLA and Washington are great new additions, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Northwestern are also strong, but most schools in the conference are not on Cal's level as overall universities.

The situation for Stanford and UC Berkeley is unfortunate but I remember going to multiple Rose Bowls over the last 10 years that were not even close to half Stanford fans. It was awesome seeing Stanford kill Iowa live (and the insane Farmers Only halftime show by the band after Stanford was up 30+) but Iowa traveled SO much better (probably 70% of the stadium). Stanford couldn't sell out a small Stanford Stadium with a top 10 team and Andrew Luck or Christian McCaffrey. Stanford has great sports that students and most alumni just barely care about. That doesn't cut it in the current environment since Stanford isn't big enough to meaningfully deliver the Bay Area market and doesn't have the eyeballs to justify major streaming $$.

Great points. Interesting observations.

If I may, I would like to guess at your occupation based on the above bolded statements. Russian diplomat ?

Exactly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Freezing ND out would be an interesting tactic. The B1G doesn't need ND at all (no B1G schools have ND as their top rival) and their ACC deal has been a bit of a slap on the face too.
I don't see any upside in scheduling them for most B1G schools with maybe the exception of Purdue.
There is financial upside in having ND join the B1G though and I'm all for that! It would make the rich even richer and is a big plus for future deals when the $$ might not be as flush as it is now.

ND has had numerous chances to join the Big Ten. It’s their own arrogance that could end up being their downfall. Expecting the conference to beg ND to join at this point is folly.

[Anonymous]

I love the Big Ten Conference and I love Notre Dame. There is a lot of respect & cooperation between Notre Dame & the Big Ten member schools.

Notre Dame's vision is of a national school--and it is. The Big Ten Conference is in a position to help maintain that vision as the world of college football is changing rapidly and change is not going to wait for any one school--even if that school is Notre Dame.

Notre Dame in the SEC would be a massacre and the cultures just do not seem right.

Notre Dame in the ACC works IF the ACC can get Stanford & Berkeley on board.

Notre Dame in the Big Ten Conference is what God intended--but who is he/she to tell Notre Dame football what to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Internally funded research largely comes from reallocating tuition to research.

Unless you have an 18 billion dollar endowment.l,,

No. UM endowment distributions were $434M for the FY22 Fiscal Year. It would take the payout from the entire endowment and perhaps more to fund the $500M internal funded research. Most endowments are restricted by donors as to purpose, and other purposes and could not be applied to internal R&D funding. Pretty much anything given to the athletic program, law school, business school, academic scholarships, financial aid, etc. would not contribute to funding the internal funding for research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Freezing ND out would be an interesting tactic. The B1G doesn't need ND at all (no B1G schools have ND as their top rival) and their ACC deal has been a bit of a slap on the face too.
I don't see any upside in scheduling them for most B1G schools with maybe the exception of Purdue.
There is financial upside in having ND join the B1G though and I'm all for that! It would make the rich even richer and is a big plus for future deals when the $$ might not be as flush as it is now.

ND has had numerous chances to join the Big Ten. It’s their own arrogance that could end up being their downfall. Expecting the conference to beg ND to join at this point is folly.

It is not a matter of begging; it is a matter of bargaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Big Ten Conference has to respect Notre Dame and Notre Dame's vision for its football & athletic program.”

The Big Ten doesn’t need ND to be successful. Personally, I’d love to see them shut out of all conference games. They can go independently into the sunset for all I care.

Freezing ND out would be an interesting tactic. The B1G doesn't need ND at all (no B1G schools have ND as their top rival) and their ACC deal has been a bit of a slap on the face too.
I don't see any upside in scheduling them for most B1G schools with maybe the exception of Purdue.
There is financial upside in having ND join the B1G though and I'm all for that! It would make the rich even richer and is a big plus for future deals when the $$ might not be as flush as it is now.

ND has had numerous chances to join the Big Ten. It’s their own arrogance that could end up being their downfall. Expecting the conference to beg ND to join at this point is folly.

It is not a matter of begging; it is a matter of bargaining.

I agree with that to a point. My response is more towards the Domer who thinks the B1G should treat ND to additional privileges that are not given to other programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Internally funded research largely comes from reallocating tuition to research.

Unless you have an 18 billion dollar endowment.l,,

No. UM endowment distributions were $434M for the FY22 Fiscal Year. It would take the payout from the entire endowment and perhaps more to fund the $500M internal funded research. Most endowments are restricted by donors as to purpose, and other purposes and could not be applied to internal R&D funding. Pretty much anything given to the athletic program, law school, business school, academic scholarships, financial aid, etc. would not contribute to funding the internal funding for research.

Of course the endowment doesn’t pay for all of the internally funded R&D. You’re
forgetting that Michigan gets well over 300 million annually from the state. Of course tuition covers some of the research dollars as well. That goes without saying at virtually every major research institution.

[Anonymous]

“Notre Dame in the Big Ten Conference is what God intended--but who is he/she to tell Notre Dame football what to do.”

You can’t be serious….

[Anonymous]

“ Notre Dame in the ACC works IF the ACC can get Stanford & Berkeley on board.”

Two schools with little tv audience three time zones away from the rest of the conference makes zero sense. Try harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

Stanford and Cal dropping big-time football and joining the Ivy League would be incredible! They'd never actually agree to join a crappy league like the Ivy but it is fun to think about for Stanford from my perspective.

Interesting post.

Decades ago (about 1980), the Ivy League targeted Northwestern University and the US Military Academy at West Point for membership. Northwestern stopped the conversation due to the travel burden that would be placed upon its athletes & athletic teams.

There are many stories about Ivy League expansion, but most are likely not true. It would involve 1) an actual invitation and 2) the target school being willing to forego athletic scholarships.

[Anonymous]

The ACC is in big trouble if some lawyer can find a loophole.

[Anonymous]

Where does Florida State think they should end up? The way their leaders are talking, they clearly think they are worthy of a lot more $$.

[Anonymous]

remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.