College Football--Big Ten Expansion

[Anonymous]

I'm sick of this story. Say goodbye to:
- rivalries
- regional pride
- history
- traditions

Yup, everything for the almighty $$$.

[Anonymous]

Will the B1G stay where it will be in 2024 for 3+ years?

[Anonymous]

I know the conferences have been realigning on a football axis, but some schools like Kansas, UNC, Duke, etc. have revenue generating basketball programs that aren’t insignificant either. I’d wager that Duke’s basketball program is an attractive target, and their football program has had a similar or better track record than Stanford’s in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cal fits what the Big Ten wants schools to be more than anything on the academic side. It is the best public research institution in the US and is the flagship university in a key state. That profile just doesn't matter for sports $$ right now though.
You have to remember that schools like Purdue, Northwestern, and Minnesota would never be invited to the party if things were being formed today. They're much more like Cal, Stanford, and Oregon State in adding value than Michigan or Ohio State.

(OP here):

Do you have any basis for your claim that "UCal-Berkeley is the best public research institution in the US" ?

Are you familiar with the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures list ? UCal-Berkeley is the 32nd highest, not the first.

Expenditures (quantity) and quality are two different things. Cal is #32 because the nearby medical center with which it collaborates, UC San Francisco, is counted separately. If you combine the two, they would rank #2. A large part of JHU's R&D comes from its administration of the Federal applied physics laboratory. If that is excluded UC Berkeley + San Francisco would be #1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

Is this a reference to the Federal Government's National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report ?

Yes. The source of all strange funding stats.

Why are they "strange" ? Because they don't suit your agenda ?

If you go to the NSF page, you can get breakdowns of the R&D funding expenditures. Some schools have medical school R&D Expenditures included while others do not for various reasons--which apply to all of the 1,000 or so schools contained in the report.

Understand that almost all research dollars are brought in by graduate programs--not 100%, but the overwhelming majority.

UCal-Berkeley enthusiasts also complain each year about the school's ranking in US News. All of the schools are judged by the same standards, yet Cal fans think that it should be treated differently. Fine. US News also gives a public university ranking which rates UC-Berkeley quite high.

I understand the disappointment and frustration of UCal-Berkeley & Stanford supporters. The collapse of the Pac-12 after 108 years likely will have a serious, noticeable impact upon both schools. Nobody is rejoicing; in fact, many are working hard to figure out a solution. However, ignorance based denigration existing Big Ten Conference members is probably not the best tactic to charm the Big Ten Conference into extending an offer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will the B1G stay where it will be in 2024 for 3+ years?

I think the B1G is done unless it ND joins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Internally funded research largely comes from reallocating tuition to research.

[Anonymous]

FWIW Bringing the Big Ten Conference football expansion back into perspective:

The number (#1) target school--Notre Dame--is ranked at #106 on the NSF R&D expenditures list.

The Big Ten Conference and their broadcast affiliates were not in search of academic research partners; it was a search for compatible football programs with compatible universities which would produce positive results for both The Big Ten Conference and for its broadcast affiliates.

It's almost as if UCal-Berkeley showed up to a gun fight with a knife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know the conferences have been realigning on a football axis, but some schools like Kansas, UNC, Duke, etc. have revenue generating basketball programs that aren’t insignificant either. I’d wager that Duke’s basketball program is an attractive target, and their football program has had a similar or better track record than Stanford’s in recent years.

I understand the thought, but basketball has not driven a single realignment decision. Basketball money is in the tourney, and that money all goes to the NCAA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will the B1G stay where it will be in 2024 for 3+ years?

I think the B1G is done unless it ND joins.

Beautifully stated.

[Anonymous]

The research element of this thread is a red herring. Big Ten is primarily interested in media market value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The research element of this thread is a red herring. Big Ten is primarily interested in media market value.

(OP here)

Correct. I think that we all can agree with your point.

Nevertheless, UCal-Berkeley & Stanford were in the final round along with Oregon & Washington, and the Big Ten Conference was considering the addition of all four universities. The effect of a no offer by the Big Ten Conference may have resounding effects on both schools. Personally, I think that both universities deserve serious reconsideration by the Big Ten Conference, but I also understand that the Big Ten Conference's priority is to advance the best interests of its current members--including USC & UCLA.

If Stanford & UCal-Berkeley can generate offers from the Big 12 Conference, the finances would be better than if the Pac-12 had survived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://research.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/VOR_FY22.pdf

Michigan receives over $1,000,000,000 yearly in funding from sources other than the NIH. That’s still more than Berkeley. Internally funded research is also over $500,000,000.

Michigan and Berkeley would consider each other academic peers but not peers with places like Minnesota, Purdue, or Michigan State. I think the point is more Berkeley would clearly be in the top few academic schools in the B1G and not close to the bottom as someone was trying to hint at with some strange funding stats. If it is the #1 or #3 overall public research university in the country, that is splitting hairs.

I agree. The Big Ten would want Berkeley because of its academics and prestige. However, Berkeley would not be one, two, or three in the conference as far research $$$ totals. The facts are indisputable.

Correct.

Based on the National Science Foundation R&D Expenditures report, UCal-Berkeley would rank eleventh (#11) among the Big Ten Conference schools, yet it would definitely be among the top 5 schools for academics.

The Big Ten Conference and its media partners (Fox, NBC, & CBS and BTN) were primarily assessing the added value of football programs among other factors during its most recent round of expansion.

Across the board, it would be at the top. For USNWR graduate program top 10 rankings, Berkeley and Michigan are tied for 1st with 59 top 10 (Stanford is 3rd with 56). But Berkeley's average ranking is higher than Michigan and it achieves its first place rank without having a medical school. As noted, UC San Francisco is rated separately.

Wow ! Clearly, you do not understand or appreciate the culture of the Big Ten Conference member schools.

Okay. Let's assume that UCal-Berkeley is the best school in the universe and ranked at the top for everything except value of its football program to the Big Ten Conference and its broadcast affiliates--What would change ?

The Ivy League is an athletic conference as well.

Stanford and Cal dropping big-time football and joining the Ivy League would be incredible! They'd never actually agree to join a crappy league like the Ivy but it is fun to think about for Stanford from my perspective.