Vox article on incels

[Anonymous]

Zack Beauchamp, writing for Vox, has a longish, interesting read on the "incel" community and how it has evolved over the years. It was actually started by a gay Canadian woman as a sort of support group and has morphed into an incredibly toxic, woman-hating presence on the Internet and, too often, in the real world.
<https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/4/16/18287446/incel-definition-reddit>

Most of the incels now are male and between the ages of 16-30. I'm well beyond the target range but back when I was in the target range (80s/early 90s) identified with a lot of the commonalities they mention. I'm almost certainly better off that the Internet wasn't a huge presence back then. I was awkward and shy, too skinny but not ugly. Girls weren't approaching me, and I mostly wasn't approaching them. My first couple of tentative efforts to ask a girl out didn't go very well so I stopped trying. In retrospect, I know the problem was mostly on my end. And, I was fairly well aware of my shortcomings, but I frequently vented about what I regarded as the hypocrisy or disingenuous statements by "women" about what they wanted (this mostly came from unreliable sources like magazine articles, etc.) where money, aggression, and muscled-good looks weren't cited so much as "wanting a guy with a sense of humor." I'm funny! I make girls and guys laugh. Girls aren't beating down my door, so they must be lying! Some truth, but mostly bullshit that was really me expressing that I was unhappy. I don't think my experience was terribly unusual -- regardless of gender. A ton of us have a difficult time with the opposite sex and feel awkward as we make our way through adolescence. From my perspective at the time, it looked like girls had it way easier. But, part of the maturing process is recognizing other peoples' challenges, and girls obviously had plenty.

Anyway, for a lot of guys who feel similar these days, the Internet -- and especially these incel and Men's Rights type sites -- can add kerosene to the fire.

"The degeneration of LoveShy reflects the rage that many men express offline. Angry, entitled misogyny is a fact of the world, and it was inevitable that this reality would shape virtual spaces as much as real ones. A forum for young, dateless men was always a prime candidate for where misogynist ideas would come to dominate. All it took was the opening of a venue uninterested in heavily policing its users for this real-world anger to become a defining feature of the virtual incel world — and that’s what LoveShy provided.
. . .
The “manosphere,” a loose group of websites united by their belief in various male-dominant ideologies, was even more important in reshaping inceldom. It includes “men’s rights” activists and pickup artists, or PUAs, men who teach other men that they can sleep with women by insulting them and manipulating their psychology.

These overlaps produced a fairly large and networked group of sexually frustrated men, united in blaming their situation on women. These men appropriated the term “incel” for themselves and their idea, outcompeting the IncelSupport community for ownership of the term.

Then in 2014, a self-identified incel went on a killing spree in Isla Vista, California."

Now these sites are full of guys celebrating Elliot Rodger in various ways. It's tough to distinguish the guys who are just trying to be transgressive and shocking - just doing it for the lulz - from the guys who actually mean it.

I guess I'll have to have a talk with my son and my daughter about this sort of thing. Hopefully "don't be an asshole and don't put up with assholes" will cover most of it.

[Anonymous]

Hopefully "don't be an asshole and don't put up with assholes" will cover most of it.

I read the whole article and found it really interesting. But I don't think that the above will be sufficient. The point of the article is that some of these ideas--about entitlement to women's attention and bodies, about expectations that women manage men's emotions, etc.--are pervasive in our culture, so that even people who aren't currently extreme are absorbing them, and may be primed to become more extreme if they get sucked into this stuff. There are lots of people who think that women don't choose "nice guys," for example, who don't really unpack whether those guys are actually all that nice, or whether they are refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness.

I think you have to talk to your kids really explicitly about gender roles, about how to manage disappointment (romantic and otherwise), about healthy and unhealthy ways to express anger and sadness, about what to do if you see someone else behaving in toxic or abusive ways, etc. Because while "incel" culture is extreme, it's an outgrowth of misogynistic, toxic stuff that was already floating around.

[Anonymous]

Great article, OP. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Pardon my lack of sympathy for someone's rejection or awkwardness. What an utterly benign problem these incels have.

[Anonymous]

Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Pardon my lack of sympathy for someone's rejection or awkwardness. What an utterly benign problem these incels have.

Their lived experience shows that it's not a benign problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

Eep I don't think you should do that. First of all, it's not always true - charisma, or talent, or whatever, can count for way more than sheer physical attractiveness. Also how is he supposed to know what that actually means for him? Are you going to rate your son on a scale of 1-10 and tell him he's not to ask out anyone above a 7?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Pardon my lack of sympathy for someone's rejection or awkwardness. What an utterly benign problem these incels have.

Their lived experience shows that it's not a benign problem.

Compared to life or death? Yeah, it's absolutely a ridiculously petty and benign problem. I'll take men laughing at me as a woman all day, every day, for the rest of my life, if it meant I never ever had to worry about my physical wellbeing ever again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

Eep I don't think you should do that. First of all, it's not always true - charisma, or talent, or whatever, can count for way more than sheer physical attractiveness. Also how is he supposed to know what that actually means for him? Are you going to rate your son on a scale of 1-10 and tell him he's not to ask out anyone above a 7?

Aside from the good points you raise, I'm absolutely not objective. I think he's a fine looking boy. I have no idea what the girls think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Pardon my lack of sympathy for someone's rejection or awkwardness. What an utterly benign problem these incels have.

Their lived experience shows that it's not a benign problem.

Compared to life or death? Yeah, it's absolutely a ridiculously petty and benign problem. I'll take men laughing at me as a woman all day, every day, for the rest of my life, if it meant I never ever had to worry about my physical wellbeing ever again.

Disagree, and I’m a woman. You’re presenting a false choice, a choice none of us will ever face. The real issue is that we can and should tackle multiple issues at once. We can tackle violence (and should tackle it first) but we can also tackle things that make life easier for others, like self-esteem issues for men and for everybody else. You’re basically saying, let’s ignore your measles while we treat your cancer.

[Anonymous]

Let's be honest about it. 80% of men are not attractive to women. And living in a highly sexualized culture adds to the frustration felt by these men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest about it. 80% of men are not attractive to women. And living in a highly sexualized culture adds to the frustration felt by these men.

I know that's something that gets said, but I don't think it's true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

Pardon my lack of sympathy for someone's rejection or awkwardness. What an utterly benign problem these incels have.

Their lived experience shows that it's not a benign problem.

Compared to life or death? Yeah, it's absolutely a ridiculously petty and benign problem. I'll take men laughing at me as a woman all day, every day, for the rest of my life, if it meant I never ever had to worry about my physical wellbeing ever again.

Disagree, and I’m a woman. You’re presenting a false choice, a choice none of us will ever face. The real issue is that we can and should tackle multiple issues at once. We can tackle violence (and should tackle it first) but we can also tackle things that make life easier for others, like self-esteem issues for men and for everybody else. You’re basically saying, let’s ignore your measles while we treat your cancer.

It's not really a false choice. I know what it's like to be laughed at - and sure, it doesn't feel good. But it's infinitely better than the kinds of safety risks women face pretty much all day, every day, and the choices we are required to make to minimize those risks all the time. And yes--I'll say let's ignore your acne while we treat our cancer. Acne sucks, but the comparison is also asinine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest about it. 80% of men are not attractive to women. And living in a highly sexualized culture adds to the frustration felt by these men.

Huh? I thought all women cared about were status and money?

There are things that any person - man or woman - can do to make themselves more attractive. You can work on your physical appearance. You can work on your income. The hardest of all, is working on your personality - which is what I suspect repels women from "incels" in the first place - not appearance or money or other malleable things.

[Anonymous]

Male humans are the only mammals that get the opportunity to have sex without winning a physical battle over other males. They have it pretty lucky. Men feel entitled to sex and think that they shouldn't have to do anything for it. These incels are just not accepting that no one deserves access to women's bodies.

Be decent to women and maybe they will want to have sex with you one day.