Vox article on incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

Thank you for proving that women are dream killers. Don't talk to him about this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So in this thread we have established that...

- Men are dangerous creatures who can’t be trusted.
- Men are on average less attractive and less successful than women’s expectations
- Men do not deserve to have their physical and mental needs addressed and not only that but wanting those needs addressed is misogynistic

Add in that men are told over and over from a very young age to be strong providers and protectors only to grow up in an economy that makes that incredibly difficult and in a society where attempting to be the patriarch is treated with scorn. We won’t even get into the myriad of mental health issues that men face.

Any you wonder why some guys get fed up and lose perspective.

Are these guys jerks? Sure, but if you had been laughed at and treated as a failure since you were 9, you would probably respond similarly.

Yup. And let’s not forget that men are repeatedly told from a young age, “women are smart, strong, successful, independent, and they don’t need you.” At least until they are over 30, when the message becomes “stop being so immature, man up, marry her and start a family!” To which guys increasingly respond, “Why?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NONE OF THIS obviates the fact that women are attacked by men at far higher rates than they're attacked by other women. So: men and their violence are the problem in either scenario.

Attacked, or killed? There are higher rates of domestic violence (aka attacks) in lesbian relationships than in heterosexual relationships.

Yeah I’m gonna need a citation for that.

https://news.feinberg.northwestern.edu/2014/09/carroll-domestic-violence/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NONE OF THIS obviates the fact that women are attacked by men at far higher rates than they're attacked by other women. So: men and their violence are the problem in either scenario.

Attacked, or killed? There are higher rates of domestic violence (aka attacks) in lesbian relationships than in heterosexual relationships.

Yeah I’m gonna need a citation for that.

https://news.feinberg.northwestern.edu/2014/09/carroll-domestic-violence/

Read it twice, not seeing exactly what, if anything, supports your claim as stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I’d like to know is how much of this culture is created and fed by Russian trolls. I have no doubt they are involved to some extent, because this culture is absolutely creating an angry, divisive country citizentry.

Not necessarily Russian, but certainly some trolls who just seek stoke and divide. It’s unbelievably easy to do now, and hard for average people to tease out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

why would you do this

[Anonymous]

The craziest thing about the incels to me is their insistence that their physical attributes are what makes them undateable.

Bros, it's your terrible personalities! I don't want to have sex with someone who both desires and hates me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I’d like to know is how much of this culture is created and fed by Russian trolls. I have no doubt they are involved to some extent, because this culture is absolutely creating an angry, divisive country citizentry.

Not necessarily Russian, but certainly some trolls who just seek stoke and divide. It’s unbelievably easy to do now, and hard for average people to tease out.

It’s not just individual trolls.

The biggest problem is that rightwing billionaires find it useful to stoke that anger and division, because it gets people to vote for tax cuts for billionaires.
So there is a TON of money spent by people like the Koches (Daily Caller), Mercers (Breitbart), Wilkses (Daily Wire, Prager “U”), Singer, Anschutz, the Koch network. Add in Murdoch who uses Fox as a propaganda weapon and loves Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham and Hannity...

Our country is being broken because oligarchs have found ways to spend money on media and propaganda to get what they want (tax cuts, union-busting, regulatory rollbacks). Sure, that requires stoking hate and division. But they don’t care about that - the billionaires don’t care about us or the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re: "refusing to date women who don't meet their own standards of attractiveness."

My son is 15 and I was just thinking about whether/how to talk to him about "leagues." I know I should tell him generally that he should be looking for someone who enjoys his attention. But, should I suggest to him that physical attractiveness generally sets the boundaries of who is going to be interested and who is not?

Ideally, looks are just one factor among many. In practice (and with some exceptions), I think physical appearance is the primary filter with other qualities nudging that up or down a few notches.

why would you do this

Plenty of commenters on this subject suggest that the bitterness that men feel is because they hit on only the most attractive women. I don't agree that this is what's happening for the most part, but that'd be the rationale for telling the kid to stay in his lane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I’d like to know is how much of this culture is created and fed by Russian trolls. I have no doubt they are involved to some extent, because this culture is absolutely creating an angry, divisive country citizentry.

Not necessarily Russian, but certainly some trolls who just seek stoke and divide. It’s unbelievably easy to do now, and hard for average people to tease out.

It’s not just individual trolls.

The biggest problem is that rightwing billionaires find it useful to stoke that anger and division, because it gets people to vote for tax cuts for billionaires.
So there is a TON of money spent by people like the Koches (Daily Caller), Mercers (Breitbart), Wilkses (Daily Wire, Prager “U”), Singer, Anschutz, the Koch network. Add in Murdoch who uses Fox as a propaganda weapon and loves Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham and Hannity...

Our country is being broken because oligarchs have found ways to spend money on media and propaganda to get what they want (tax cuts, union-busting, regulatory rollbacks). Sure, that requires stoking hate and division. But they don’t care about that - the billionaires don’t care about us or the country.

It's not just wealthy people sowing division to aid in their ulterior motives. Anger itself is profitable. Twitter, Youtube, partisan media sites, and the rest aren't going to voluntarily limit anger-inducing content because that's what captures eyeballs and generates ad revenue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's be honest about it. 80% of men are not attractive to women. And living in a highly sexualized culture adds to the frustration felt by these men.

I know that's something that gets said, but I don't think it's true.

Google is your friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The craziest thing about the incels to me is their insistence that their physical attributes are what makes them undateable.

Bros, it's your terrible personalities! I don't want to have sex with someone who both desires and hates me!

You speak the truth.

I've always been considered pretty in a fairly conventional fashion. I've dated a lot of guys who weren't "handsome" but who were attractive to me for other reasons -- usually humor, kindness, and in one memorable case, physical grace (dude could DANCE). Incels who blame their physical appearance are 100% unwilling to examine the real problem.

[Anonymous]

9:59 - I agree with you. It's not that people need to necessarily be told to stay in their lane. But it's likely that a very attractive female has a lot of options. If she's getting hit on by 12 dudes, that's a lot of competition. But there might be girls he knows that aren't quite as objectively beautiful but they might be amazing people and he might like them better than the hot chick if he took the time. (Girls are guilty of this too.)

I have a couple of hot friends who are also absolute hot messes. They are not especially good to the guys they date, and their lives are trainwrecks, but they get asked out constantly because they are hot. It's discouraging to the guys who get rejected, and it can be bad for the women as well because it can be hard to pick one you might actually like when there are so damn many options, many of whom are just in it for the hotness.

So maybe the advice we should give is not "stay in your lane". It should be to take your time to get to know people beyond their looks so you can better decide who you actually like. (and gives them time to decide if they like you.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So in this thread we have established that...

- Men are dangerous creatures who can’t be trusted.
- Men are on average less attractive and less successful than women’s expectations
- Men do not deserve to have their physical and mental needs addressed and not only that but wanting those needs addressed is misogynistic

Add in that men are told over and over from a very young age to be strong providers and protectors only to grow up in an economy that makes that incredibly difficult and in a society where attempting to be the patriarch is treated with scorn. We won’t even get into the myriad of mental health issues that men face.

Any you wonder why some guys get fed up and lose perspective.

Are these guys jerks? Sure, but if you had been laughed at and treated as a failure since you were 9, you would probably respond similarly.

Yup. And let’s not forget that men are repeatedly told from a young age, “women are smart, strong, successful, independent, and they don’t need you.” At least until they are over 30, when the message becomes “stop being so immature, man up, marry her and start a family!” To which guys increasingly respond, “Why?”

They respond "Why?" No they don't. Look at the statistics. Most people still get married.

You can be smart, strong, successful, independent, etc, and not NEED a partner but WANT one. Why are some men so fragile that a) they view women being told they are smart and strong as a bad thing, and b) that they must be "needed" by the "weaker sex" in order to start a family with someone? Studies show most men do want kids...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:59 - I agree with you. It's not that people need to necessarily be told to stay in their lane. But it's likely that a very attractive female has a lot of options. If she's getting hit on by 12 dudes, that's a lot of competition. But there might be girls he knows that aren't quite as objectively beautiful but they might be amazing people and he might like them better than the hot chick if he took the time. (Girls are guilty of this too.)

I have a couple of hot friends who are also absolute hot messes. They are not especially good to the guys they date, and their lives are trainwrecks, but they get asked out constantly because they are hot. It's discouraging to the guys who get rejected, and it can be bad for the women as well because it can be hard to pick one you might actually like when there are so damn many options, many of whom are just in it for the hotness.

So maybe the advice we should give is not "stay in your lane". It should be to take your time to get to know people beyond their looks so you can better decide who you actually like. (and gives them time to decide if they like you.)

This seems like logical advice, but you have to be careful of the "friend zone." It's become fashionable for people to claim that the friend zone isn't a real thing, but it totally can be.