DDOT's latest plan to destroy traffic, Georgia Avenue edition

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

The same WHAT can be said about drivers? Drivers can get on and off their car anywhere along their route? No they can't. Someone has to be driving the car.

Bus lanes will help DC residents, not punish them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

It's very confusing. We have to create traffic chaos in Ward 4 so that Maryland commuters have a slightly shorter bus ride to work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

The safe streets advocates in DC support the bus lanes.

The opponents of the bus lanes are not safe streets advocates.

(These are separate statements, not a linked premise and conclusion.)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

It's very confusing. We have to create traffic chaos in Ward 4 so that Maryland commuters have a slightly shorter bus ride to work?

TRAFFIC!!!!!!!!! CHAOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111

Otherwise known as bus-only lanes.

If you can't stand the non-existent "chaos", try taking the bus.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

I take the GA buses all the time and doubt that most are Maryland commuters. I often get on at the Silver Spring metro or one or two stops to go south past it and there are not usually a ton of people on yet. Then as the buses go down Georgia there is turnover among people getting on and off.

Actually one of the issues with the DC/MD cross-jurisdictional system is that it is harder to take buses for longer stretches- the GA Ave buses all start/end at the Silver Spring metro so iff you are coming form further north then you have to transfer. It would be nice if there was a bus that kept going all the way up Georgia. I live a few blocks off Georgia and have had many times where I am going somewhere in Silver Spring north of the where the bus turns onto Wayne and it doesn't make sense to transfer. So I drive, which I prefer not to do.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC needs to stop pretending it’s some enormous city and accept the fact that it’s a large car-centric town in a car-centric metropolitan area which is dominated by the suburbs.

Even assuming this "fact" were true (which it isn't), there would be no reason it had to stay that way forevermore.

NP. Sorry to burst your bubble but the PP is right and the region was gotten even more car-centric since COVID. Sure, DC can try to force people to change commuting preferences by restricting car capacity on roads but - in the long term - the only thing that’s going to do is drive even more jobs into safer and more car convenient locations in the suburbs.