Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?
For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.
Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".
I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.
Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.
You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.
Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.
That’s a despicable thing to write.
Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.
Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.
Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.
Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds
There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.
+1000
What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.
Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.
That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.
Except it hasn't. Not every vehicle is new and urban population growth normally incentivizes small easier to park vehicles. Your ideas create a self-fulfilling prophecy. An arms race for larger and higher vehicles. The very thing you point to as justification.
Congestion is already bad so we need to make it worse. Cars are too big nowadays so we need to make them bigger.
There was an old lady that swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Perhaps she'll die.
She swallowed a dog to catch the cat to catch the bird to catch the spider to catch the fly.
Anonymous wrote:DC needs to stop pretending it’s some enormous city and accept the fact that it’s a large car-centric town in a car-centric metropolitan area which is dominated by the suburbs.
Even assuming this "fact" were true (which it isn't), there would be no reason it had to stay that way forevermore.
NP. Sorry to burst your bubble but the PP is right and the region was gotten even more car-centric since COVID. Sure, DC can try to force people to change commuting preferences by restricting car capacity on roads but - in the long term - the only thing that’s going to do is drive even more jobs into safer and more car convenient locations in the suburbs.
We live in the city but spend more and more time in the suburbs going to restaurants and whatnot because it's easier to get there and park than it is to go downtown or a lot of other places in the city.
We're doing the same thing. It's easier to meet up with people in VA or MD than downtown.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?
For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.
Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".
I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.
Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.
You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.
Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.
That’s a despicable thing to write.
Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.
Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.
Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.
Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds
There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.
+1000
What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.
Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.
That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.
Cars aren't willing to do anything, or unwilling. Or light trucks. You're talking about drivers, who are people regardless of what they're driving.
Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.
the plan is to improve bus transit …
Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...
It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.
Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.
Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.
Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.
Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.
You sound slow, so we'll break it down:
1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive 2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.
These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.
Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.
That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.
But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.
"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.
Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.
Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.
This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.
Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.
Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.
Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?
Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.
It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.
Here are some fun facts about buses:
1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way
12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.
When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.
Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.
But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.
They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.
Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.
The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.
What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.
How does a bus lane punish DC residents?
Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.
This, again?
Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.
Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.
It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.
Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.
That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.
No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.
Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.
If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.
And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.
DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.
Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?
All up and down Georgia and on most other roads as well. Sometimes its delivery trucks, sometimes its people picking up stuff, but its almost constant now that we're a 0 enforcement zone.
Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.
the plan is to improve bus transit …
Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...
It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.
Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.
Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.
Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.
Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.
You sound slow, so we'll break it down:
1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive 2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.
These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.
Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.
That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.
But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.
"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.
Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.
Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.
This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.
Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.
Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.
Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?
Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.
It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.
Here are some fun facts about buses:
1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way
12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.
When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.
Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.
But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.
They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.
Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.
The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.
What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.
How does a bus lane punish DC residents?
Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.
This, again?
Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.
Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.
It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.
Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.
That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.
No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.
Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.
If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.
And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.
DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.
Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?
All up and down Georgia and on most other roads as well. Sometimes its delivery trucks, sometimes its people picking up stuff, but its almost constant now that we're a 0 enforcement zone.
But is it the law for a delivery truck to stop for 5 minutes? I am not arguing, just asking. I see this all over DC with UPS. They have to park near where the deliveries are because otherwise they would haul packages for blocks in some cases. It's just a function of a city that has very few parking lots compared to other cities.
Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.
the plan is to improve bus transit …
Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...
It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.
Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.
Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.
Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.
Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.
You sound slow, so we'll break it down:
1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive 2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.
These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.
Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.
That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.
But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.
"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.
Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.
Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.
This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.
Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.
Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.
Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?
Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.
It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.
Here are some fun facts about buses:
1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way
12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.
When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.
Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.
But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.
They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.
Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.
The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.
What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.
How does a bus lane punish DC residents?
Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.
This, again?
Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.
Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.
It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.
Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.
That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.
No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.
Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.
If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.
And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.
DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.
Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?
All up and down Georgia and on most other roads as well. Sometimes its delivery trucks, sometimes its people picking up stuff, but its almost constant now that we're a 0 enforcement zone.
But is it the law for a delivery truck to stop for 5 minutes? I am not arguing, just asking. I see this all over DC with UPS. They have to park near where the deliveries are because otherwise they would haul packages for blocks in some cases. It's just a function of a city that has very few parking lots compared to other cities.
Yes. It is against the law for someone to stop and exit a vehicle while in an active traffic lane.
All the bad behavior that we see from delivery trucks, cars, bikes and pedestrians is illegal but not enforced and the lack of enforcement has created a vicious cycle.
Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.
the plan is to improve bus transit …
Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...
It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.
Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.
Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.
Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.
Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.
You sound slow, so we'll break it down:
1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive 2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.
These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.
Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.
That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.
But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.
"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.
Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.
Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.
This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.
Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.
Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.
Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?
Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.
It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.
Here are some fun facts about buses:
1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way
12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.
When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.
Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.
But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.
They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.
Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.
The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.
What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.
How does a bus lane punish DC residents?
Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.
This, again?
Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.
Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.
It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.
Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.
That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.
No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.
Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.
If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.
And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.
DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.
Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?
All up and down Georgia and on most other roads as well. Sometimes its delivery trucks, sometimes its people picking up stuff, but its almost constant now that we're a 0 enforcement zone.
But is it the law for a delivery truck to stop for 5 minutes? I am not arguing, just asking. I see this all over DC with UPS. They have to park near where the deliveries are because otherwise they would haul packages for blocks in some cases. It's just a function of a city that has very few parking lots compared to other cities.
Yes. It is against the law for someone to stop and exit a vehicle while in an active traffic lane.
All the bad behavior that we see from delivery trucks, cars, bikes and pedestrians is illegal but not enforced and the lack of enforcement has created a vicious cycle.
According to this they are allowed to park in a designated commercial loading zone for a specified time period. So if the truck is within a loading zone that is not illegal. The question then is how many are parked in lanes outside of a loading zone.
I would agree that they need to address the trucks that are not in the commercial loading zone, but, given the fact that they don't enforce any traffic laws in DC, it seems unlikely.
I'm late to this party, but would love dedicated bus lanes on Georgia Ave. I take the bus on Georgia a lot more than I drive there and it would be great for it to be faster.
Anonymous wrote:I'm late to this party, but would love dedicated bus lanes on Georgia Ave. I take the bus on Georgia a lot more than I drive there and it would be great for it to be faster.
I am genuinely curious, for what type of trips would you use bus service, and how often?
I have a family with several kids, I just can’t see using the bus, even if it stopped in front of my house and ran every five minutes. It would take me ten times as long to go to all of the places I need to go in a day.
Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.
the plan is to improve bus transit …
Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...
It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.
Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.
Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.
Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.
Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.
You sound slow, so we'll break it down:
1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive 2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.
These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.
Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.
That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.
But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.
"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.
Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.
Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.
This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.
Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.
Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.
Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?
Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.
It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.
Here are some fun facts about buses:
1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way
12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.
When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.
Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.
But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.
They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.
Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.
The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.
What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.
How does a bus lane punish DC residents?
Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.
This, again?
Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.
Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.
It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.
I think the ideologues who run DDOT are not capable of wrapping their heads around the fact that the public does not want what they are selling. If people wanted to ride the bus, they'd already be on the bus. No one is saying "I'd ride the bus if they did X." It's the same thing with bike lanes. The city keeps building this stuff that the public didn't ask for and won't use.
Look at commuter surveys. Driving is the only form of transportation that is becoming more popular in DC. All other forms have lost market share to cars.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?
For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.
Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".
I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.
Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.
You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.
Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.
That’s a despicable thing to write.
Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.
Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.
Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.
Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds
There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.
+1000
What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.
Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.
That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.
Except it hasn't. Not every vehicle is new and urban population growth normally incentivizes small easier to park vehicles. Your ideas create a self-fulfilling prophecy. An arms race for larger and higher vehicles. The very thing you point to as justification.
Congestion is already bad so we need to make it worse. Cars are too big nowadays so we need to make them bigger.
There was an old lady that swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Perhaps she'll die.
She swallowed a dog to catch the cat to catch the bird to catch the spider to catch the fly.
I think you misunderstand me. The point being that there has already been a sea-change with vehicles and the "light truck" is the new normal such that small cars have essentially disappeared from our market. So that a speed bump here or there isn't going to actually change buying patterns.
There's no point in "fixing" cars anymore, the situation is too far gone. Electrics make it worse since they tend to be large, heavy, expensive and more likely to hit pedestrians. The solution is to change infrastructure to reduce the number of cars in the city. That requires some carrots and sticks, and this bus lane project is much heavier on carrots.
Anonymous wrote:I'm late to this party, but would love dedicated bus lanes on Georgia Ave. I take the bus on Georgia a lot more than I drive there and it would be great for it to be faster.
I am genuinely curious, for what type of trips would you use bus service, and how often?
I have a family with several kids, I just can’t see using the bus, even if it stopped in front of my house and ran every five minutes. It would take me ten times as long to go to all of the places I need to go in a day.
Are you talking about taking it to work?
DP. When your kids get older, they can take the bus. That will save you a lot of time, because you won't have to drive them everywhere.
Anonymous wrote:I'm late to this party, but would love dedicated bus lanes on Georgia Ave. I take the bus on Georgia a lot more than I drive there and it would be great for it to be faster.
I am genuinely curious, for what type of trips would you use bus service, and how often?
I have a family with several kids, I just can’t see using the bus, even if it stopped in front of my house and ran every five minutes. It would take me ten times as long to go to all of the places I need to go in a day.
Are you talking about taking it to work?
One family member takes it to work, one kid goes to school mainly on the 70/79 (sometimes Metro). I use it more for errands as needed.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?
For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.
Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".
I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.
Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.
You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.
Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.
That’s a despicable thing to write.
Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.
Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.
Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.
Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds
There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.
+1000
What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.
Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.
That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.
Except it hasn't. Not every vehicle is new and urban population growth normally incentivizes small easier to park vehicles. Your ideas create a self-fulfilling prophecy. An arms race for larger and higher vehicles. The very thing you point to as justification.
Congestion is already bad so we need to make it worse. Cars are too big nowadays so we need to make them bigger.
There was an old lady that swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Perhaps she'll die.
She swallowed a dog to catch the cat to catch the bird to catch the spider to catch the fly.
I think you misunderstand me. The point being that there has already been a sea-change with vehicles and the "light truck" is the new normal such that small cars have essentially disappeared from our market. So that a speed bump here or there isn't going to actually change buying patterns.
There's no point in "fixing" cars anymore, the situation is too far gone. Electrics make it worse since they tend to be large, heavy, expensive and more likely to hit pedestrians. The solution is to change infrastructure to reduce the number of cars in the city. That requires some carrots and sticks, and this bus lane project is much heavier on carrots.
Assuming the future is a fool's game. We don't have flying cars, robot servants, or most of the other things promised by the House of Tomorrow. The only way cars will ever disappear is with teleportation and replicators. Accepting the reality of life as it is is essential to sound policy making.
For instance, this Georgia Ave idea would be a lot less worse if 16th Street had not been changed.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?
For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.
Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".
I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.
Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.
You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.
Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.
That’s a despicable thing to write.
Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.
Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.
Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.
Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds
There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.
+1000
What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.
Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.
That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.
Except it hasn't. Not every vehicle is new and urban population growth normally incentivizes small easier to park vehicles. Your ideas create a self-fulfilling prophecy. An arms race for larger and higher vehicles. The very thing you point to as justification.
Congestion is already bad so we need to make it worse. Cars are too big nowadays so we need to make them bigger.
There was an old lady that swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Perhaps she'll die.
She swallowed a dog to catch the cat to catch the bird to catch the spider to catch the fly.
I think you misunderstand me. The point being that there has already been a sea-change with vehicles and the "light truck" is the new normal such that small cars have essentially disappeared from our market. So that a speed bump here or there isn't going to actually change buying patterns.
There's no point in "fixing" cars anymore, the situation is too far gone. Electrics make it worse since they tend to be large, heavy, expensive and more likely to hit pedestrians. The solution is to change infrastructure to reduce the number of cars in the city. That requires some carrots and sticks, and this bus lane project is much heavier on carrots.
Assuming the future is a fool's game. We don't have flying cars, robot servants, or most of the other things promised by the House of Tomorrow. The only way cars will ever disappear is with teleportation and replicators. Accepting the reality of life as it is is essential to sound policy making.
For instance, this Georgia Ave idea would be a lot less worse if 16th Street had not been changed.
What an odd comment. There's nothing futuristic or experimental or science fiction about bus lanes.
Forum Index
»
Metropolitan DC Local Politics
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}