DDOT's latest plan to destroy traffic, Georgia Avenue edition

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

I think the ideologues who run DDOT are not capable of wrapping their heads around the fact that the public does not want what they are selling. If people wanted to ride the bus, they'd already be on the bus. No one is saying "I'd ride the bus if they did X." It's the same thing with bike lanes. The city keeps building this stuff that the public didn't ask for and won't use.

What are you talking about? The public actually is using the bus and actually is using bike lanes.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

I think the ideologues who run DDOT are not capable of wrapping their heads around the fact that the public does not want what they are selling. If people wanted to ride the bus, they'd already be on the bus. No one is saying "I'd ride the bus if they did X." It's the same thing with bike lanes. The city keeps building this stuff that the public didn't ask for and won't use.

What are you talking about? The public actually is using the bus and actually is using bike lanes.

There's fewer bus riders than there were 25 years ago and the share of Washingtonians who bike is a rounding error.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.

That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.

No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.

Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.

If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.

And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.

DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

I think the ideologues who run DDOT are not capable of wrapping their heads around the fact that the public does not want what they are selling. If people wanted to ride the bus, they'd already be on the bus. No one is saying "I'd ride the bus if they did X." It's the same thing with bike lanes. The city keeps building this stuff that the public didn't ask for and won't use.

Not at all. Some people ride the bus because they have to (mobility, too young to drive, no car) and some sometimes ride the bus but sometimes drive. I want to ride the bus for every trip and the following statements are true for me:

- I would ride the bus more if I reliably knew when it would come
- I would ride the bus more if it moved faster and wasn't held up by traffic
- I would ride the bus more if it ran later hours
- I would ride the bus more if there were more express buses

Transportation policy absolutely takes these types of preferences into account.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

I think the ideologues who run DDOT are not capable of wrapping their heads around the fact that the public does not want what they are selling. If people wanted to ride the bus, they'd already be on the bus. No one is saying "I'd ride the bus if they did X." It's the same thing with bike lanes. The city keeps building this stuff that the public didn't ask for and won't use.

What are you talking about? The public actually is using the bus and actually is using bike lanes.

There's fewer bus riders than there were 25 years ago and the share of Washingtonians who bike is a rounding error.

About 50 years ago there were goddamn bus only lanes that existed on many roads.



If there was actual infrastructure to support shorter, more reliable bus headways and protected, safe cycling - MORE PEOPLE WOULD FREAKING USE THEM.

But also - go figure, but neither of your dumb statements are actually TRUE.

Bus ridership did plummet along with rail during the pandemic... and has recently gotten right back pre-pandemic levels (it's the green line)


Meanwhile, Capital Bikeshare numbers have increased as well year over year over year, breaking 600,000 monthly rides in the most recent few months, which is freaking double the prior records of about 300,000 monthly rides before the pandemic in 2017


Lies, lies, lies, and more lies.

You want to drive your car, fine. You do that. But stfu with the stupid made up crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Lies, lies, lies, and more lies.

You want to drive your car, fine. You do that. But stfu with the stupid made up crap.

I think that, for posters who make claims like the public doesn't ride the bus or people don't use bicycles for transportation, people who do ride the bus and/or use bicycles for transportation simply don't count as people. The logic being:

-People drive.
-Therefore, people who don't drive aren't people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Lies, lies, lies, and more lies.

You want to drive your car, fine. You do that. But stfu with the stupid made up crap.

I think that, for posters who make claims like the public doesn't ride the bus or people don't use bicycles for transportation, people who do ride the bus and/or use bicycles for transportation simply don't count as people. The logic being:

-People drive.
-Therefore, people who don't drive aren't people.

Or 3/5ths of a person...

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.

That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.

No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.

Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.

If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.

And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.

DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.

Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.

Jobs program for the automotive repair worker and shocks manufactures!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.

Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Department of Transportation says an average of one person is killed on Georgia Avenue each year, which seems very low for a major road in a major city. I wonder if this plan would create more problems than it solves.

the plan is to improve bus transit …

Sounds like it is a little unclear what this proposal is supposed to accomplish...

It's quite clear, actually. The purpose of bus lanes is to improve bus service and the efficiency of the street in transporting people. An additional benefit is that it also makes the street safer.

Huh? This plan would radically reduce the number of people who can use Georgia Avenue to get around. It would create gridlock on Georgia Avenue and, as has been pointed out many, many times, there is not a shred of evidence that bus only lanes in DC have increased bus ridership. Even the people who do ride the bus would likely not even go much faster because on Georgia Avenue there is either a traffic light or a bus stop every 12 feet.

Have you ever been on a bus? Buses are far more space-efficient for transporting people than cars, especially cars that only have one person in them. It seems like you don't know very much about how bus lanes work.

Are you eight years old? Seriously, this sounds like an argument that a small child would make.

Yes, even small children understand that many more people can travel in the same amount of road space in buses, versus cars. This is not complicated.

You sound slow, so we'll break it down:

1. The vast majority of people using Georgia Avenue drive
2. If you reduce Georgia Avenue to one lane in each direction, it will create some nasty gridlock that will radically reduce the number of drivers who can use it
3. There is no evidence that bus only lanes increase ridership. If drivers face gridlock, they'll just turn on Waze and go around it using side streets.
4. If you choke off the main way people use Georgia Avenue and bus ridership remains unchanged, then the number of Washingtonians who use Georgia Avenue will plummet.

These proposals seem well meaning but the net, real world effect of them is to make it harder for people to move about the city.

Your point number 1 is flat-out wrong. So there's no need to go on. You're just wrong on the facts.

That's ok, we know you don't have any substantive response.

But you should go check out Georgia Avenue sometime. It sounds like you're unfamiliar.

"Your assertion is factually incorrect" is a substantive response. It sounds like you're mixing up cars and people.

Look at the bus web site. Even during rush hour, there's very few buses on Georgia Avenue. As business owners will tell you, there's not a lot of foot traffic either. it's mostly just cars.

Those "very few" buses still manage to move some 20,000 people a day you realize, right? That's half the users on GA. With a bus lane, they still would only get 1/3 of the road surface.

This is a completely different situation than the bike lanes on CT, which you also oppose, which had a hypothetical daily use in the hundreds. GA has 20,000 people right now stuck in those never ending lines of cars. A bus lane would cut tens of thousands of commutes down, and potentially entice people out of their cars into the faster buses.

Thinking more broadly, emergency vehicles would be able to get to emergencies much faster using these bus lanes. It would also lead to less traffic and parking demand downtown. Seems like an absolute slam dunk.

Pfft. I'd be surprised if 10 percent of people on Georgia are on the bus.

Who needs data when you can just make stuff up based on what you see through your windshield while driving?

Look at the WMATA web site. There's a bus tracker! You can see how many buses are currently on Georgia Avenue! Spoiler alert: There's very few.

It's 9:49 am, I just looked at the 70 bus, and there are 12 of them on the route.

Here are some fun facts about buses:

1. They can carry a lot of people
2. People can get on and off along the way

12 buses on a route that's almost 10 miles long does not seem like very many buses.

When you consider that those 12 buses are ON AVERAGE carrying ~270 people a day (~440k trips and about 1,600 buses in service) where the average personal vehicle has 1.25, that's the equivalent of about 2,600 fewer vehicles a day on GA ave. That's a good amount fewer vehicles.

Oh, and the bus riders are 81% minority. And 55% zero car households. So it's also an accessibility thing for lower income folks.

But they're Maryland commuters and I thought we hated Maryland commuters.

They're obviously not all Maryland commuters. And even if every single one of them were Maryland commuters, they would be Maryland commuters on buses, which is better for DC residents than Maryland commuters in cars.

Some posters really are having difficulty with the concept that bus riders can get on and off the bus anywhere along the route.

The same can obviously be said about drivers so that's pretty ironic.

What I'm having difficulty with is the idea that we should punish DC residents to benefit MD commuters. It's about the hypocrisy and situational ethics.

How does a bus lane punish DC residents?

Georgia Avenue is a major thoroughfare in this city. A gazillion people drive on it every day. This plan would create total gridlock on Georgia Avenue, which drivers would avoid by taking every side street in Ward 4, streets that were never intended to accommodate that much traffic.

This, again?

Yes, it's a major thoroughfare, which is exactly why it needs bus lanes, which will improve mobility for people.

Metrobus is hardly an improvement in mobility - with or without dedicated bus lanes.

It certainly isn't for people who refuse to take it. For people who do take it, or at least don't refuse to take it, it absolutely is an improvement in mobility. Furthermore, even if you refuse to take it, you should want everybody else to take it. More people on the bus means fewer people in their cars, getting in the way of you in your car.

Except that by reducing throughput in half to accommodate this it is a net negative. A net negative that harms DC residents the most in order to primarily benefit MD commuters.

That's silly, PP. The bus lane will increase throughput. Specifically, throughput of people.

No it won't. Do the math yourself. The only way that can possibly true is if bus only lanes increase bus ridership by over 50%. Even the most ardent supporter of buses doesn't claim that.

Its not lane capacity that causes congestion, but intersection capacity. A standard lane should handle 1,800 cars an hour roughly. Georgia gets about 18,000 cars a day in both directions. There is more than plenty of lane for all current cars, but intersections restrict how many vehicles can access the lanes.

If you look at the project design, you can see that intersection capacity will remain largely the same with left turn lanes, and cars being able to use the bus lane to turn right. So even with 0 mode shift, you're not going to see much worse traffic Armageddon than usual. With a single through lane, you're also going to get fewer conflicts from lane changing and therefore fewer collisions. Emergency vehicles will also be able to breeze down the bus lane instead of causing all sorts of craziness.

And of course, once buses become the faster option you'll see mode shift. It wouldn't take much to end up with a net improvement for drivers as well. This has consistently been the experience in other cities.

DDOT says 40 percent of drivers who currently use Georgia Avenue will have to find another route. Seems like it would be easier for everyone is they just did something about all the double parking on Georgia. Buses could move faster, and so could cars, and drivers wouldn't have to constantly change lanes to dodge double parkers.

Double parking refers to a car parking in a traffic land next to another car that is legally parked. Are you saying that there are lots of cars on Georgia parked
next to the cars that are already legally parked by the curb?

All up and down Georgia and on most other roads as well. Sometimes its delivery trucks, sometimes its people picking up stuff, but its almost constant now that we're a 0 enforcement zone.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the title of this entire post- isn't "destroying traffic" the goal? Do we want traffic?

For some reason people think replacing POV traffic, which has the highest fatality rate, with bus traffic, which has one of the lowest fatality rates, will somehow lead to an increase in fatalities because drivers will seek out kids on side-streets to run over in their rage and this is a good reason to maintain the status quo.

Except you're not actually replacing it and nobody "seeks out kids on side streets to run over in their rage".

I would have thought by now that you would have realized that your constant lies and attempts at demonization have backfired. But I guess not.

Eh. You're the one who's demonizing drivers, by asserting that they will drive dangerously through side streets and kill children.

You can tell the people in favor of this plan do not really care about safety, and that this plan is really just about spiting drivers, because this plan will *obviously* put a lot of children in danger by redirecting traffic from Georgia Avenue to the quiet streets of Ward 4, and advocates of this absurd plan are suddenly trivializing people's concerns about safety.

Let's face it. They wouldn't mind if some kids get killed. They'll just use that to further their arguments to clamp down on driving.

That’s a despicable thing to write.

Have you not been reading this thread? Some of the folks here will be doing cartwheels when this DDOT proposal inevitably gets children killed.

Your presumptions are so idiotic that I don’t know where to start.

Please show up to a public meeting and tell everyone that advocates of bus lanes celebrate the deaths of children.

Also give us a heads up where and when you plan to do this so that we can bear witness to what subsequently unfolds

There's lots of posters here saying if they don't want their kids killed as a result of this plan, then we have to agree to their plans to cripple traffic on every street surrounding Georgia Avenue. Sounds like you idiots are taking children hostage.

+1000

What will happen is they will lobby for traffic humps and probably get them on a lot of streets. So people will take side streets at a speed of 5-10mph or blow out the suspension on their vehicles.

Which ironically then incentives the giant SUVs they complain about.

That ship already sailed. 80%+ of new vehicles are "light trucks." The real irony is that cars seem willing to traverse bumps at greater speed, while "light trucks" really slow down. Probably for the same reason they take turns so slowly.