Gaza War, Part 2

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I find it hypocritical that the people wagging their fingers over the killing of innocents in Palestine are silent about the massive atrocities against innocents committed by Assad and Russia in Syria. Or about China's genocide and ethnic cleansing of muslim Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

So, you’re saying that the Israeli genocide of Palestinians is on the same scale as those other atrocities?

I agree with you.

I disagree.

Assad butchered a lot more civilians (over 500,000) than the IDF did.
For that matter, Russia has killed far more Ukrainian civilians than the IDF did as well.

But the voices we hear pointing at the IDF won't talk about any of that - because they side with Russia and the other evil powers who do even worse deeds than the IDF.

You have a very warped view of who is on the “side” of the Palestinians. I believe the Israeli response is non-defensible from a moral viewpoint. I certainly have no problem acknowledging that Russia has killed many many Ukrainians and that Putin is morally bankrupt.

Putin supports Hamas.

So? I don’t support Hamas. I also don’t support Israel’s response or American tax dollars going to this response.

Agreed.

muh, muh, muh muh tax dollars.

If I lived in a neutral third country that is not supporting either side with money (india maybe?), I would still be horrified by the actions of the Israeli govt. As an American, I have more culpability because my country and my tax dollars are going to support this. I have a responsibility to speak out.

India? thoughts the govt was pro-israel.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.

I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.

This is a genocide.

As time passes, and more details emerge, Israel will forever be branded a genocidal nation. It’s a matter of time before that catches up with them. I don’t think the US is going to stop supporting them immediately but our complicity is another way that US is declining on the world stage.

Biden has already sealed his legacy as genocide denier.

Most reasonable people would react like Israel to an attack like Oct 7. This is actually a pretty measured response. How do you think, I don't know, an Iran would respond? Reasonable people are not "branding Israel as a genocidal nation". The appropriation and hyperbole, wow.

Wow. You think this response is measured? What would an Iran do that is worse? Deploy nuclear weapons?

Probably. Aren't they threatening that right now? ^

Ironically, the only ones threatening to obliterate an entire people is Israel. Apparently, we need a genocide in the Middle East to keep people safe.

This is untrue. The motto of Hamas is "From the River to the Sea" meaning they want Israel genocided. Iran and others have also called for Israel to be genocided.

I have no trouble believing that Hamas wants to kill all Jews. Their words and actions have been consistent with that.

But consider that “From the River to the Sea” is a slogan that the Palestinian people have to describe their desire to be free. If you believe Palestinians cannot be free without exterminating all Jews, does that mean Palestinians have to be occupied forever?

The oppressed are looking for a way out. And all the oppressors hear is “antisemitism.”

All this and the prior thread has shown me is that Israelis top defenders truly don’t see Palestinians as human. At all. The desire for a right of return is seen as aberrant and evil when it’s a bedrock part of Israel’s own founding. The desire to have equal rights even in the WB, no Hamas control, is impossible. It’s just disgusting.

No matter what happens today, Israel has lost every inch of whatever moral high ground it pretends to occupy.

After Hamas’s actions, they’ve ceded any moral high ground as well, yeah? So it’s just kind of a race to the bottom over all this religious nonsense…

Oh. My. God. For the last time, Hamas never had any moral high ground to cede. Israel did.

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?

Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?

It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?

And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.

Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.

And your slavery references are stupid.

Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV

Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.

Israel not looking so hot right now

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.

I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.

This is a genocide.

As time passes, and more details emerge, Israel will forever be branded a genocidal nation. It’s a matter of time before that catches up with them. I don’t think the US is going to stop supporting them immediately but our complicity is another way that US is declining on the world stage.

Biden has already sealed his legacy as genocide denier.

Most reasonable people would react like Israel to an attack like Oct 7. This is actually a pretty measured response. How do you think, I don't know, an Iran would respond? Reasonable people are not "branding Israel as a genocidal nation". The appropriation and hyperbole, wow.

Wow. You think this response is measured? What would an Iran do that is worse? Deploy nuclear weapons?

Probably. Aren't they threatening that right now? ^

Ironically, the only ones threatening to obliterate an entire people is Israel. Apparently, we need a genocide in the Middle East to keep people safe.

This is untrue. The motto of Hamas is "From the River to the Sea" meaning they want Israel genocided. Iran and others have also called for Israel to be genocided.

I have no trouble believing that Hamas wants to kill all Jews. Their words and actions have been consistent with that.

But consider that “From the River to the Sea” is a slogan that the Palestinian people have to describe their desire to be free. If you believe Palestinians cannot be free without exterminating all Jews, does that mean Palestinians have to be occupied forever?

The oppressed are looking for a way out. And all the oppressors hear is “antisemitism.”

All this and the prior thread has shown me is that Israelis top defenders truly don’t see Palestinians as human. At all. The desire for a right of return is seen as aberrant and evil when it’s a bedrock part of Israel’s own founding. The desire to have equal rights even in the WB, no Hamas control, is impossible. It’s just disgusting.

No matter what happens today, Israel has lost every inch of whatever moral high ground it pretends to occupy.

+1000

The polling in America says otherwise. Americans have been sympathetic to both Israel and Palestinians for years and endeavored to help with a peace process. Regarding, moral high ground today, Israel has it. Americans overwhelmingly support an Israeli response to Oct 7 if you look at the polling numbers. We don't respond well to terrorist demands. You know, 9/11, Lockerbie, Beirut, US Embassy, Tehran and so on. We remember and we don't pardon this type of behavior from anyone.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why America has to have any dog in this fight other than domestic politics. Neither Israel nor certainly Gaza have any natural resources or trade that we can't replace elsewhere.

Indeed, if we were less reliant on fossil fuels, America could simply wash our hands of the entire Middle East as a foreign policy concern. Let China deal with their awful, never-ending religious and tribal civil wars. It amazes me that my entire life (at 56 years old) turmoil in the Middle East has almost always been the #1 international news item of the day.

We need to focus on Asia, Europe, and Latin America as our foreign policy priorities, and stop obsessing with a relatively unimportant part of the world.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Israel has closed off Gaza to journalists and destroyed Gaza's internet all in an attempt to hide the ongoing genocide. Israel's quest for revenge and bloodlust won't be satiated until the West Bank and Gaza are purged of Palestinians. This was always the end goal - purge the land of non-Jews to fulfill Israel's desire for a Jewish homeland

BS. Journalists are not safe in Gaza.
And, the internet was cut off so terrorists won't have the means to communicate.

Neither are Palestinian children. But that seems like an acceptable trade?

This is the last time I’m going to ask: what do you think should happen? Should Hamas be allowed to continue to run Gaza?

Hard truth is that that is not for us to decide
Should what is going on now continue to happen?

You’re right, it was for Israel to decide after Hamas attacked them. They decided.

That is like saying it was for Japanese to decide after Pearl Harbor. Israel is to blame for all of this. Before Israel was created Jews and Palestinians lived in peace. Now it is Israel killing Palestinians and stealing land. Sickening.

No hun. It’s like saying it was for the US to decide after Pearl Harbor.

So I guess the US should have just tried talking to the Japanese or the Germans.

Israel is not the good guy. They have a long history of killing Palestinians because they think they are racially superior. You can not say Oct 7 is the start of this. This is what Israel has done since it was created- killing Palestinians and take their land.

Is Hamas the good guy? Does there need to be a good guy?

Hamas is not the Palestinian people. With all of you equating all Palestinians as Hamas, you may as say you are all January Sixers, you are all white supremacist and members supporters of the KKK because you’re white and American. Is the worst of your society a true representation of your personal beliefs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?

Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?

It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?

And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.

Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.

And your slavery references are stupid.

Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV

Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.

Israel not looking so hot right now

Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why America has to have any dog in this fight other than domestic politics. Neither Israel nor certainly Gaza have any natural resources or trade that we can't replace elsewhere.

Indeed, if we were less reliant on fossil fuels, America could simply wash our hands of the entire Middle East as a foreign policy concern. Let China deal with their awful, never-ending religious and tribal civil wars. It amazes me that my entire life (at 56 years old) turmoil in the Middle East has almost always been the #1 international news item of the day.

We need to focus on Asia, Europe, and Latin America as our foreign policy priorities, and stop obsessing with a relatively unimportant part of the world.

You’re 56 years old and don’t understand this?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Can we stop this Jews-helped-MLK thing as if it sheds any light on the morality of what Israel is doing now? And let’s be clear, SOME Jews helped the civil rights movement. Other Jews were just as anti-black racist as non-Jewish white people. Read, for example, the wonderful memoir “The Color of Water,” written by a biracial man whose white Jewish mother was disowned by her Jewish family for marrying a black man.

Oy vey.

I dated a Jewish guy not a decade ago whose parents referred to me (a black woman) in derogatory terms - to their son - so eff off.

Huh?

So don’t “oy vey” the idea that some Jews are racist. Thanks and good bye!

+ a million.

Some people in every group are racist. What’s your point

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1718240244129059167?s=20

Clear message.

The only thing I take issue with is his statement that humanity remains haunted by the October 7 massacre. Much of humanity celebrated the slaughter and much of humanity — consumed by some deep, primeval hatred of Jews — does not care.

Trying to explain why this is so to a Jewish child is very difficult.

I’m sure you did a great and historically nuanced job explaining this to your DC. This seems likely.

Bot quick response.

You wish, trash for brains. I’m sure your mournful “we’ve got haters and know not why” speech was one for the ages. Maybe record the next one and post it here. Please?

Seems like I struck a nerve.

You’re an a-hole, but not a serious person. You’re pretty bad at the whole internet thing.

[Anonymous]

Israel is not at war with Gaza or Hamas...Gaza has no army or defenses to Israel's military action or weaponry. What Israel is doing is genocide. Anyone who says otherwise is a paid Israeli shill and can't be trusted to speak the truth.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Israel has closed off Gaza to journalists and destroyed Gaza's internet all in an attempt to hide the ongoing genocide. Israel's quest for revenge and bloodlust won't be satiated until the West Bank and Gaza are purged of Palestinians. This was always the end goal - purge the land of non-Jews to fulfill Israel's desire for a Jewish homeland

BS. Journalists are not safe in Gaza.
And, the internet was cut off so terrorists won't have the means to communicate.

Neither are Palestinian children. But that seems like an acceptable trade?

This is the last time I’m going to ask: what do you think should happen? Should Hamas be allowed to continue to run Gaza?

Hard truth is that that is not for us to decide
Should what is going on now continue to happen?

You’re right, it was for Israel to decide after Hamas attacked them. They decided.

That is like saying it was for Japanese to decide after Pearl Harbor. Israel is to blame for all of this. Before Israel was created Jews and Palestinians lived in peace. Now it is Israel killing Palestinians and stealing land. Sickening.

No hun. It’s like saying it was for the US to decide after Pearl Harbor.

So I guess the US should have just tried talking to the Japanese or the Germans.

Israel is not the good guy. They have a long history of killing Palestinians because they think they are racially superior. You can not say Oct 7 is the start of this. This is what Israel has done since it was created- killing Palestinians and take their land.

Is Hamas the good guy? Does there need to be a good guy?

Hamas is not the Palestinian people. With all of you equating all Palestinians as Hamas, you may as say you are all January Sixers, you are all white supremacist and members supporters of the KKK because you’re white and American. Is the worst of your society a true representation of your personal beliefs.

This is a tricky one to assert, honestly. I'm having trouble with this claim given that Hamas members are Palestinian and receive support from the populace. I don't believe them to be "the same" as the general populace, but there is not as much 'distance' as I would personally like to support your claim. Appreciate thoughts on this.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Nobody is throwing Israeli Jews lives away. We just don’t condone apartheid and genocide in our name. Why is that so hard to understand that we can’t abide it. We didn’t abide in it 70years ago in Europe and we don’t abide in it today.

You are using words you don’t understand. Israel is not an apartheid state. I know that it’s the co-opted buzzword du jour but it’s factually totally and completely inaccurate.

And genocide? Hamas is dedicated - quite literally - to the eradication of Jewish people all over the world. This is the organization that Israel is fighting. This is the organization that Israel is having to defend itself against - a group that raped women, burned children alive, and kidnapped infants. But, oh, the genocide! You don’t even know what that means.

Hamas has explicitly stated its desire for the genocide of Jews! Not in self defense but actually encouraging in its charter the eradication of Jews. Where is your concern?!? You don’t really know what genocide is, do you. But Jewish people, sadly, do.

Palestinians are not treated equally in Israel. This is an apartheid state.

Yes Israel is trying to defend itself against Hamas. The question is at what cost? At the cost of the lives of Palestinian children (who are not Hamas and who have been treated badly by the Israelis)? What cost do you think is too high?

You and I were culpable for the genocide of native Americans. Because our forebearers also felt like their right to exist was under attack. Dress it up all you want but Israel is eradicating a people using my tax dollars. It doesn’t feel good to me.

Do you know how many Arabs live Israel and have full Israeli citizenship?

Do you think if you free Palestine from River to Sra like you want, the result will be a liberal democracy with religious freedom?

It is the defining feature of a controlling state that some members of an oppressed group will be treated better than others. House slaves vs plantation slaves anyone?

And no there is no hope for a liberal democracy with religious freedom in that region in the near term. Not if the Palestinians are in charge. Sadly not if the Israelis are in charge either.

Israel is the best the region is going to get. We all know it. For all its flaws it is much better than the alternative.

And your slavery references are stupid.

Dubai over Israel. But I prefer neither. YMMV

Dubai builds shiny things, but their human rights record is HORRIBLE.

Israel not looking so hot right now

Odd to put Dubai over them though. What with their basically theocratic dictatorship and massive human rights abuses of the vulnerable and invisible populations, you know, like guest workers and their poor princesses.

Right? They literally have slaves. Dubai is not democratic in the slightest. Odd comparison.

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Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.

I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.

This is a genocide.

As time passes, and more details emerge, Israel will forever be branded a genocidal nation. It’s a matter of time before that catches up with them. I don’t think the US is going to stop supporting them immediately but our complicity is another way that US is declining on the world stage.

Biden has already sealed his legacy as genocide denier.

Most reasonable people would react like Israel to an attack like Oct 7. This is actually a pretty measured response. How do you think, I don't know, an Iran would respond? Reasonable people are not "branding Israel as a genocidal nation". The appropriation and hyperbole, wow.

Wow. You think this response is measured? What would an Iran do that is worse? Deploy nuclear weapons?

Probably. Aren't they threatening that right now? ^

Ironically, the only ones threatening to obliterate an entire people is Israel. Apparently, we need a genocide in the Middle East to keep people safe.

This is untrue. The motto of Hamas is "From the River to the Sea" meaning they want Israel genocided. Iran and others have also called for Israel to be genocided.

I have no trouble believing that Hamas wants to kill all Jews. Their words and actions have been consistent with that.

But consider that “From the River to the Sea” is a slogan that the Palestinian people have to describe their desire to be free. If you believe Palestinians cannot be free without exterminating all Jews, does that mean Palestinians have to be occupied forever?

The oppressed are looking for a way out. And all the oppressors hear is “antisemitism.”

All this and the prior thread has shown me is that Israelis top defenders truly don’t see Palestinians as human. At all. The desire for a right of return is seen as aberrant and evil when it’s a bedrock part of Israel’s own founding. The desire to have equal rights even in the WB, no Hamas control, is impossible. It’s just disgusting.

No matter what happens today, Israel has lost every inch of whatever moral high ground it pretends to occupy.

After Hamas’s actions, they’ve ceded any moral high ground as well, yeah? So it’s just kind of a race to the bottom over all this religious nonsense…

Oh. My. God. For the last time, Hamas never had any moral high ground to cede. Israel did.

Yes, and it’s forever gone.

[Anonymous]

Seems like what these people want is for Israel to do nothing.