DD is trying to hang out with a cool crowd where she is on the margins - how to steer her to others?

[Anonymous]

My DD keeps hanging out with a group of girls at school who are alpha types. She is almost always a fifth wheel, or at least she ends up feeling this way the majority of the time, based on how she describes it. There are other friend options that we have tried to encourage in various ways, but DD is laser focused on sticking with this crowd. While they accept her at school and some after school activities, it seems pretty clear to me and to my DH that she's never going to be considered part of the core group and they will not fulfill her friendship needs.

When I was a kid, I was able to pick up on these cues and knew instinctively to move on. I don't get why my DD doesn't. I've been tempted to lay it out for her in somewhat blunt terms, but am betting that it will only backfire. Before I do something stupid, I'd welcome advice from parents who have helped a daughter move on to better friends. MS is a tough time for me to do this since it seems like kids do a lot of their own social planning...

Any suggestions?

[Anonymous]

the more I try to advise my DD about such issues, the more I have pushed her away. Some kids will listen, some want to learn it the hard way and sometimes those lessons are more valuable. I tried to be very involved and find out about issues and try to advise her but it always backfired

[Anonymous]

My mother tried to advise me on this kind of thing and I didn’t listen. I now see as an adult she was completely right.

She needs to figure it out. It will be a good life lesson.

[Anonymous]

Some things kids have to learn and figure out on their own. Keep talking to her, asking her questions about how she feels with these friends, provide opportunities to meet other people. but maybe stop with the 'steering'.

[Anonymous]

Is there an activity or sport she can get involved in that will give her a set group that she will spend time with often?

My dd’s core friend group took off in a social climbing direction that she didn’t want to follow in junior year. Once she formed a new group of friends, she was so much happier and so much herself.

[Anonymous]

She'll figure it out on her own. Time to back off.

[Anonymous]

As a teen, I was always at the margins, and it didn't bother me at all, I preferred it that way because I wasn't comfortable being sucked into any group. Adolescents sometimes need a little space, even from their friends.

I have grown up to be a well-adjusted adult and have a couple of very close friends who have supported me in hard times, as well as a larger circle of more casual friends.

[Anonymous]

OP here - thanks - to clarify, my DD isn’t happy being on the periphery and is constantly disapointed in these girls and upset that they don’t invite her to things outside of school. She keeps hoping for a deeper level friendship with one or more of these girls and keeps getting the same result. DD ends up not valuing girls who so treat her well and want to hang out with her because she’s so focused on these other ones.

But wI get it - can’t over do anything but surely there is some way to help her realize a that a good friendship wouldn’t leave her feeling this way before her self esteem is really crushed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks - to clarify, my DD isn’t happy being on the periphery and is constantly disapointed in these girls and upset that they don’t invite her to things outside of school. She keeps hoping for a deeper level friendship with one or more of these girls and keeps getting the same result. DD ends up not valuing girls who so treat her well and want to hang out with her because she’s so focused on these other ones.

But wI get it - can’t over do anything but surely there is some way to help her realize a that a good friendship wouldn’t leave her feeling this way before her self esteem is really crushed.

I already responded to you OP.

We get it. I certainly think you can say to her that friends should not make you feel the way she is currently feeling. But don't go too hard or she'll just stop talking to you about it.

However, this is part of parenting. They go through things and don't listen to us, which is incredibly frustrating, and they need to learn it themselves. Surely you have examples of this from your own teenage years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there an activity or sport she can get involved in that will give her a set group that she will spend time with often?

My dd’s core friend group took off in a social climbing direction that she didn’t want to follow in junior year. Once she formed a new group of friends, she was so much happier and so much herself.

This, OP, but don't force an activity on her; tell her she can pick whatever she likes and you'll pay/transport. Don't leave it to her to do all the research, though, because that will overwhelm her--help her find some classes/activities/volunteering etc. by looking with her at listings at school, rec center, etc.

Do not even hint that "this is to help you find new friends" because that will turn her off and drive her away from you and from the idea.

Do not expect that an activity will mean she's suddenly (or ever) getting social invitations from new friends at that activity. If she does, great, but don't expect it or talk it up to her. She needs to want to do the activity for its own sake and find that doing it satisfies her and gives her an identity beyond "girl on the fringe of this social circle." She needs to see herself as good at something that is for her and about her. She's currently judging herself based on how these other girls see her as not worth inviting places. Get her to start seeing herself as the person who is good at art or enjoys music or loves programming or whatever. She doesn't have to be a superstar; she just has to have a real interest.

My DD has an extensive extracurricular (not a sport) that has helped her a lot; it has nothing to do with school and no one from her school participates, so it gives her people who know her as a person who's into that, like they are. It can build confidence because even if stuff at school is crummy at times, she knows who she is and doesn't feel she has to please any particular social group there.

[Anonymous]

It's about what we called "popularity"- being accepted by girls who she (and probably others) perceives as "cool." If she finds other friends, she will feel like she wasn't good enough for this particular group. Talking about what makes a good friend doesn't help because this is about her self-esteem.
She needs activities and options that make her feel good about who she is and can positively shape her identity and self image. When she feels better about who she is, she won't feel this need to validated by a "cool" group and will seek healthier, genuine friendships. If she doesn't begin feeling better about herself- this approval seeking/rejection pattern can continue into adulthood.
Sometimes maturity takes care of it- I learned by age 16-17 that I wanted to be around people I genuinely liked and people who cared about my best interests. Figuring that out shaped my adult friendships and relationships- I quickly let go of people who did not treat me well.

[Anonymous]

First, how old is she (and what grade is she in)--this makes a difference in the advice--12 y.o. tween is very different, brain-development-wise, than 16.

Second, 10:34 touches on "popularity" and there is this great book (for parents) called "Untangled" which helps a parent explain the difference between popularity and powerful girls. It's good to start using those words intentionally, as the distinction is blurred by common usage.

Third, I think one trick is when your kid is miserable and complaining or commenting to you, to just say, "wow, that just sounds really rough, and this isn't the first time that X and Y have pulled that crappy stunt. What do you think you should do?" (or "how do you think you should handle it?" or "what is your plan for dealing with it?" or "do you have a plan for dealing with it?")

I'm saying that because no doubt you've already offered your advice and she's not open to it, but she IS listening. If you sort of let her do the thinking there, she'll probably come up with something similar to your advice, but this way she has ownership and thought it out instead of leaving the thinking to you...she'll possibly end up saying something as if it's a brand new idea, as if she never heard you at all...and when that happens, I just bite my tongue and don't remind her that that was what I've been telling her all along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD keeps hanging out with a group of girls at school who are alpha types. She is almost always a fifth wheel, or at least she ends up feeling this way the majority of the time, based on how she describes it. There are other friend options that we have tried to encourage in various ways, but DD is laser focused on sticking with this crowd. While they accept her at school and some after school activities, it seems pretty clear to me and to my DH that she's never going to be considered part of the core group and they will not fulfill her friendship needs.

When I was a kid, I was able to pick up on these cues and knew instinctively to move on. I don't get why my DD doesn't. I've been tempted to lay it out for her in somewhat blunt terms, but am betting that it will only backfire. Before I do something stupid, I'd welcome advice from parents who have helped a daughter move on to better friends. MS is a tough time for me to do this since it seems like kids do a lot of their own social planning...

Any suggestions?

Go ahead and do it. It will likely help her start the process of moving on. She knows it is happening but she believes in her mind that other people from the outside don't see it and she has the illusion of being "cool" and being in the popular group. Breaking the illusion gives them the chance to relax about the appearance they think they are keeping up and start the process of moving on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there an activity or sport she can get involved in that will give her a set group that she will spend time with often?

My dd’s core friend group took off in a social climbing direction that she didn’t want to follow in junior year. Once she formed a new group of friends, she was so much happier and so much herself.

This, OP, but don't force an activity on her; tell her she can pick whatever she likes and you'll pay/transport. Don't leave it to her to do all the research, though, because that will overwhelm her--help her find some classes/activities/volunteering etc. by looking with her at listings at school, rec center, etc.

Do not even hint that "this is to help you find new friends" because that will turn her off and drive her away from you and from the idea.

Do not expect that an activity will mean she's suddenly (or ever) getting social invitations from new friends at that activity. If she does, great, but don't expect it or talk it up to her. She needs to want to do the activity for its own sake and find that doing it satisfies her and gives her an identity beyond "girl on the fringe of this social circle." She needs to see herself as good at something that is for her and about her. She's currently judging herself based on how these other girls see her as not worth inviting places. Get her to start seeing herself as the person who is good at art or enjoys music or loves programming or whatever. She doesn't have to be a superstar; she just has to have a real interest.

My DD has an extensive extracurricular (not a sport) that has helped her a lot; it has nothing to do with school and no one from her school participates, so it gives her people who know her as a person who's into that, like they are. It can build confidence because even if stuff at school is crummy at times, she knows who she is and doesn't feel she has to please any particular social group there.

Thanks - this is very helpful- follow up question for you: do I say you have to pick a class/activity? I’ve suggested and done research on art and photography classes and she always says no, even though she wants to do those in her spare time on her own. Is it enough to do it as a hobby all by yourself or is an organized activity with a new peer group what’s needed? And yes how do I get her to try or do it?

[Anonymous]

I don't know -- if it were me I'd leave it alone and let her figure it out herself. She probably already knows the score. I still remember a conversation that my mother had with me when I was a freshman in high school. I was a super nerd with only a few acquaintances I'd eat lunch with -- no real high school friends. My mother "helpfully" pointed out that I seemed to have no friends and what was I gonna do about it. Uh, yeah mom -- I already know I have no friends. Thanks for rubbing it in.

I'd leave it.