Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Guys come on. I get not liking an artist. I hate a ton of artists. But look at her recent lyrics.

You mean like from her recent single: “Once the flight has flown, with the wilt of the rose, I slept all alone, you still wouldn’t go….was it over when she laid down on the couch, was it over when he unbuttoned my blouse.”

Lord Byron is probably lying in his grave, happy to be dead because he couldn’t possibly compete with this poetic perfection.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the flown flight or the cheesy wilted rose, but I think I like the “short skirts, t-shirts” line better. (And again, she’s still going on and on about tops.) Taylor’s recent lyrics are even worse than her teenage ones.

I said recent?

She released that garbage in October 2023. How much more recent do you want?

She wrote it 10 years ago for 1989.

Who cares when she first wrote it? She released it two months ago. That’s the work she was proud of releasing this year at age 34.

What recent lyrics are you talking about? A slightly critical eye could tear any of them apart because she’s not a good lyricist. All of her lyrics are immature and cheesy.

NP but I think Anti-Hero has pretty catchy lyrics. And this was from 1989 but I love the lyrics for Blank Space. But you probably won’t agree because you think only white dudes from the 60s and 70s wrote good lyrics.

[Anonymous]

I like high functioning, successful people who excel in life due to drive and work ethic. Taylor is that and more.
It doesn’t hurt that she is good looking and wholesome too and doesn’t take sh$t from anybody.
She ran for 3.5 hours on a treadmill daily singing her entire concert 6 months before she went on tour to make sure she was in shape to deliver. You just don’t get that kind of dedication in this day & age of social media ditzes.
I like the lyrics to enough of her songs to justify going to the Eras Tour (twice!)
And I am in my 40s and a rock & roll girl of the 80s & 90s whose faves are Queen, Dire Straits, U2, Guns, Depeche, Floyd…

Her songs Bigger than The Whole Sky and Champagne Problems have me in tears mw every time. Powerful lyrics to which many of us who have lost a a pregnancy and turned down a proposal can relate to. I like some of her bops too. I frequently get ready for events to Style and Getaway Car.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You need to calm down.

+1 You're being too loud.

Yes, sit down and be quiet about your opinions like feminism says you're supposed to. A rich white woman is "killing it".

I have no problem with hers or anyone’s race. Yes, she is killing it! She is the first and so far only musician and performer in the history of music to make over a billion dollars just from music. No clothing lines or make up lines or anything like that. Ans she keeps her clothes on while doing it.
Jealous much?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Guys come on. I get not liking an artist. I hate a ton of artists. But look at her recent lyrics.

You mean like from her recent single: “Once the flight has flown, with the wilt of the rose, I slept all alone, you still wouldn’t go….was it over when she laid down on the couch, was it over when he unbuttoned my blouse.”

Lord Byron is probably lying in his grave, happy to be dead because he couldn’t possibly compete with this poetic perfection.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the flown flight or the cheesy wilted rose, but I think I like the “short skirts, t-shirts” line better. (And again, she’s still going on and on about tops.) Taylor’s recent lyrics are even worse than her teenage ones.

I said recent?

She released that garbage in October 2023. How much more recent do you want?

She wrote it 10 years ago for 1989.

Who cares when she first wrote it? She released it two months ago. That’s the work she was proud of releasing this year at age 34.

What recent lyrics are you talking about? A slightly critical eye could tear any of them apart because she’s not a good lyricist. All of her lyrics are immature and cheesy.

NP but I think Anti-Hero has pretty catchy lyrics. And this was from 1989 but I love the lyrics for Blank Space. But you probably won’t agree because you think only white dudes from the 60s and 70s wrote good lyrics.

Tori Amos is actually my favorite lyricist. Let’s compare the lyrics from “Little Earthquakes” to “Anti-Hero,” shall we?

From Little Earthquakes: “We danced in graveyards with vampires ‘till dawn, We laughed in the faces of kings never afraid to burn, And I hate, and I hate, and I hate, and I hate disintegration, Watching us wither, Black winged roses that safely changed their color.”

Meanwhile from Anti-hero: “Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby, and I’m a monster on the hill, Too big to hang out, Slowly lurching towards your favorite city, Pierced through the heart, but never killed.”

I chose these two particular lyrics because they’re talking about the same thing, a break up and disillusion while invoking imagery of supernatural fiends.

Notice how Taylor can’t even come up with a more complex word than “monster” to describe Godzilla? Tori’s witches transform into “black winged roses that safely changed their color,” but all Taylor can come up with is “pierced through the heart but never killed.”

You can call that catchy, but I’ll call it what it is mediocre and dumbed down crap.

Taylor is basic. Basic. Basic. She’s dumbed down lyricist and I’m not sure for whom or why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like high functioning, successful people who excel in life due to drive and work ethic. Taylor is that and more.
It doesn’t hurt that she is good looking and wholesome too and doesn’t take sh$t from anybody.
She ran for 3.5 hours on a treadmill daily singing her entire concert 6 months before she went on tour to make sure she was in shape to deliver. You just don’t get that kind of dedication in this day & age of social media ditzes.
I like the lyrics to enough of her songs to justify going to the Eras Tour (twice!)
And I am in my 40s and a rock & roll girl of the 80s & 90s whose faves are Queen, Dire Straits, U2, Guns, Depeche, Floyd…

Her songs Bigger than The Whole Sky and Champagne Problems have me in tears mw every time. Powerful lyrics to which many of us who have lost a a pregnancy and turned down a proposal can relate to. I like some of her bops too. I frequently get ready for events to Style and Getaway Car.

+1

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t get the TS craze either. Her songs have catchy hooks and like many have chimed in, lyrics fit for a high schooler who is scribbling on a notepad during chemistry class. Those lyrics are fine when she was 16 but now as a grown woman, it is quite juvenile.

18yr DD is a classically trained musician and not into TS at all. But she does acknowledge that the catchiness and the fun loving, sweet persona is TS’ biggest draw.

I am not mad at TS and all her fame. If it works, then it works.

At the age of 18, your daughter has no choice but to acknowledge the “catchiness” of Taylor Swift in order to survive socially with other girls her age. Middle aged me isn’t going to gaslight myself into pretending Taylor’s sweet persona (aka marketing) makes up for her complete lack of depth and talent.

Actually DD is NOT on the TS wagon at all. She doesn’t own any TS merch nor albums, never been to a TS concert nor has she asked for tickets. We both kinda shrug at this while TS mania. Unfortunate this is the stuff that sells these day, hence TS is still harping on the teenage heartbreak and quite post breakup revenge.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:She’s a mediocre singer and lyricist and a piss poor composer, dancer and instrumentalist.

But, either she and/or the people she employs are excellent at marketing so, hence, the Taylor Swift Cult and Empire.

I don’t see how you can argue she is a mediocre lyricist with a straight face unless you just want to sit and cherry pick a few dumb lyrics.

Well she wrote those lyrics at age 17. What were you doing at 17? I doubt you were winning best video at the VMAs, that’s for sure.

NP. Taylor Swift's lyrics are typically very shallow and silly. Junior high school "poetry." The PP was kind saying her work was "mediocre."

What!?! You don’t think “she wears short skirts, I wear t-shirts, she’s Cheer Captain and I’m on the bleachers” is the most beautiful, poetic lyric ever? You must be ugly and jealous and a bully misogynist. Move over Dylan, Paul Simon, Patti Smith, Leonard Cohen there’s a new Queen in town and she wears t-shirts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.

Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.

I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.

To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.

The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.

You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?

Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.

Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.

You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.

Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/TPjJC2O39m8

You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.

Love Whitney’s voice, but she never wrote anything in her life. Just sang. And she was mentally weak/unstable.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.

Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.

I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.

To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.

The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.

You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?

Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.

Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.

You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.

Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/TPjJC2O39m8

You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.

Love Whitney’s voice, but she never wrote anything in her life. Just sang. And she was mentally weak/unstable.

Taylor is mediocre in her looks, voice and lyrics. She doesn’t shine at anything but marketing.

[Anonymous]

I don't have a degree in composition or even music so I don't know if her lyrics are 'good' or 'bad' compared to the other names being thrown around, but the reality is that they resonate with enough people for her to be as wildly successful as she is. Among my elder millennial social circle (white, UMC, target audience in many ways), I've repeatedly heard friends talk about how they feel like they grew up alongside her and their experiences were represented in enough of the songs to make them fans.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Guys come on. I get not liking an artist. I hate a ton of artists. But look at her recent lyrics.

You mean like from her recent single: “Once the flight has flown, with the wilt of the rose, I slept all alone, you still wouldn’t go….was it over when she laid down on the couch, was it over when he unbuttoned my blouse.”

Lord Byron is probably lying in his grave, happy to be dead because he couldn’t possibly compete with this poetic perfection.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the flown flight or the cheesy wilted rose, but I think I like the “short skirts, t-shirts” line better. (And again, she’s still going on and on about tops.) Taylor’s recent lyrics are even worse than her teenage ones.

I said recent?

She released that garbage in October 2023. How much more recent do you want?

She wrote it 10 years ago for 1989.

Who cares when she first wrote it? She released it two months ago. That’s the work she was proud of releasing this year at age 34.

What recent lyrics are you talking about? A slightly critical eye could tear any of them apart because she’s not a good lyricist. All of her lyrics are immature and cheesy.

NP but I think Anti-Hero has pretty catchy lyrics. And this was from 1989 but I love the lyrics for Blank Space. But you probably won’t agree because you think only white dudes from the 60s and 70s wrote good lyrics.

Tori Amos is actually my favorite lyricist. Let’s compare the lyrics from “Little Earthquakes” to “Anti-Hero,” shall we?

From Little Earthquakes: “We danced in graveyards with vampires ‘till dawn, We laughed in the faces of kings never afraid to burn, And I hate, and I hate, and I hate, and I hate disintegration, Watching us wither, Black winged roses that safely changed their color.”

Meanwhile from Anti-hero: “Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby, and I’m a monster on the hill, Too big to hang out, Slowly lurching towards your favorite city, Pierced through the heart, but never killed.”

I chose these two particular lyrics because they’re talking about the same thing, a break up and disillusion while invoking imagery of supernatural fiends.

Notice how Taylor can’t even come up with a more complex word than “monster” to describe Godzilla? Tori’s witches transform into “black winged roses that safely changed their color,” but all Taylor can come up with is “pierced through the heart but never killed.”

You can call that catchy, but I’ll call it what it is mediocre and dumbed down crap.

Taylor is basic. Basic. Basic. She’s dumbed down lyricist and I’m not sure for whom or why.

Spot on. So many extraordinary lyricists out there today, the people who claim this is Swift's forte just don't listen to much other music.

And I don't have to reach for Dylan or Paul Simon or even Tori Amos. Try Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, M.I.A., Angel Olsen, Little Simz, Waxahatchee, St. Vincent.

The thing that makes Swift special is the pop star angle, the 3 hour mega-produced touring show, the costumes, the branding and marketing, the machine just churning out album after album. That's fine. Great even. She's good at what she does and if people enjoy it, good, because that's the whole point. But her lyrics are truly nothing special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like high functioning, successful people who excel in life due to drive and work ethic. Taylor is that and more.
It doesn’t hurt that she is good looking and wholesome too and doesn’t take sh$t from anybody.
She ran for 3.5 hours on a treadmill daily singing her entire concert 6 months before she went on tour to make sure she was in shape to deliver. You just don’t get that kind of dedication in this day & age of social media ditzes.
I like the lyrics to enough of her songs to justify going to the Eras Tour (twice!)
And I am in my 40s and a rock & roll girl of the 80s & 90s whose faves are Queen, Dire Straits, U2, Guns, Depeche, Floyd…

Her songs Bigger than The Whole Sky and Champagne Problems have me in tears mw every time. Powerful lyrics to which many of us who have lost a a pregnancy and turned down a proposal can relate to. I like some of her bops too. I frequently get ready for events to Style and Getaway Car.

+1

I don’t like those kind of people. They often don’t understand much of their success is due to the fact they were born with a lot. So they are unable to look at others with understanding or shift anyone’s perceptions about the world because they are too busy trying to be and have the right things.

I like lower key artistic types that make me think about mu feelings the world and our place in it.

I agree with the Tori Amos posters- any one of her lyrics can be interpreted in different ways and make me take different perspectives on the world.

That is especially important to keep in mind today as we celebrate consumerism under the guise of goodwill and religion. Merry Christmas!!!

[Anonymous]

Taylor Swift’s writing/lyrics is more prosaic or one could say, accessible than that of other writers and she’s never going to be recognized as a vocalist with an impressive range and technical virtuosity (runs, whistles, transitioning from a C2 to a C5 from one bar to another). But she uses what vocal range she does have to the best of her ability and knows how to find a good melodic hook and comes up with catchy bops. Respect for how she has transformed her musical style again and again and writes about stuff people can relate to (who hasn’t been lied to by your friends, betrayed in the workplace/had a work relationship go bad, been badmouthed on social media). She’ll be a dominating force for years to come and she has yet to rap, sing R&B or do blues, gospel or Christian music but she has many more years to go whether we like it or not.

I do feel bad for the teen girls who are not clued into all the details of her life and anthology and have to study up to stay in the know among their friends. No different than being a K-pop or boy band fan. If someone were to write a guide about her life, the Easter eggs, significant things they happened in her life, and put it in a tome, like the ones about Pokémon, it would sell like hotcakes.

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Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.

Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.

I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.

To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.

The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.

You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?

Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.

Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.

You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.

Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/TPjJC2O39m8

You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.

Love Whitney’s voice, but she never wrote anything in her life. Just sang. And she was mentally weak/unstable.

Taylor is mediocre in her looks, voice and lyrics. She doesn’t shine at anything but marketing.

She’s smart enough not to die in bathtub from a drug overdose so she’s at least got that going for her.

[Anonymous]

Of course someone complaining about her lyrics is going to pull that sexy baby monster on the hill line which most of her diehard fans hate. This is what I meant about cherry picking bad lyrics.

And I think most people think Lennon gets most of the credit for the good Beatles lyrics. I mean what makes Hey Jude a great song isn’t the lyrics (take a sad song and make it better? Na na na na na na? those are the mark of genius?)

And of course McCartney has his own ridiculous ones like “ this ever changing world in which we live in”