demoralized in MCPS

[Anonymous]

Right now there are tons of studies the seem to support a narrative that is usually referred to as a "schools to prison pipeline" because they show children that have been suspended have a much higher likelihood of both dropping out of school and ending up in prison.

As other folks have stated, this has led to huge nationwide pressure (so don't worry MCPS, you're not alone) to reduce suspensions at all costs. I doubt there will be any changes to this policy for a number of years.

It will be very interesting after these policies have been in place long enough for the students who attended school under these policies reach their late 20s early 30s.

If the theory is correct, there should be some significant decline in the number of people sent to prison, because (hooray!) we "eliminated" the "schools to prison pipeline."

But what if that decline doesn't happen? What if the act of getting suspended is not the causation, and instead simply a correlation?

What if all that happens is that the kids that engaged in bad behavior didn't get suspended while in school, but once they are adults out in society, they continue their previous pattern of bad behavior and now that behavior leads to prison?

If that ends up being the case, we will have lived through decades of this failed policy before schools are allowed to swing the pendulum back.

I really wish that all these educational studies would go more in depth and separate causation from correlation. They all just scratch the surface and are so poorly constructed! The outcomes is that schools blindly follow them and at risk kids get no useful help.

From simply a common sense point of view, it would seem that taking the action that got you suspended was a more likely predictor of future prison than the act of facing a consequence for it.

Lets pretend that it is accurate (even though the studies are so poor) and that kids who commit acts that result in suspension find that they really enjoy being suspended. They get to stay home from school probably unsupervised and do whatever they want. This is a reward not a punishment to them. Lets say that a kid that gets expelled turns to crime and gangs because there is nothing else for them to do. OK so this is a problem.

The solution is not to make the school a free for all with no consequences. This is just going to lure more kids down this path by seeing there are no consequences and more peer pressure to participate. In these environments, kids have to choice between being the predator or being the prey. No one wants to be the prey so guess what you end up with a lot more predators because you left the worst ones in the school.

These kids should be moved to a separate school that is far more controlled with more counselors and more security guards. Anti-gang task force experts should be part of the school. Their school day should be longer and they should be monitored to complete homework. Sports and any fun activities should be predicated on good behavior only. Everything gets moved to a "you earn it" not "you get it until you lose it" model. There should be a path back into the regular home school for extended and continuous good behavior.

[Anonymous]

The unspoken rule too is that we shouldn’t code too many Black and Latino kids as needing special ed services.Many of my students have been screwed because they were definitely as deserving as the rich white kid who drummed up that adhd diagnosis or had anxiety or processing issues.

[Anonymous]

Like politics and child rearing ,the pendulum for suspension and severe consequences in schools have swung too far the other way. Time to get back to the middle and use some common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Right now there are tons of studies the seem to support a narrative that is usually referred to as a "schools to prison pipeline" because they show children that have been suspended have a much higher likelihood of both dropping out of school and ending up in prison.

As other folks have stated, this has led to huge nationwide pressure (so don't worry MCPS, you're not alone) to reduce suspensions at all costs. I doubt there will be any changes to this policy for a number of years.

It will be very interesting after these policies have been in place long enough for the students who attended school under these policies reach their late 20s early 30s.

If the theory is correct, there should be some significant decline in the number of people sent to prison, because (hooray!) we "eliminated" the "schools to prison pipeline."

But what if that decline doesn't happen? What if the act of getting suspended is not the causation, and instead simply a correlation?

What if all that happens is that the kids that engaged in bad behavior didn't get suspended while in school, but once they are adults out in society, they continue their previous pattern of bad behavior and now that behavior leads to prison?

If that ends up being the case, we will have lived through decades of this failed policy before schools are allowed to swing the pendulum back.

I really wish that all these educational studies would go more in depth and separate causation from correlation. They all just scratch the surface and are so poorly constructed! The outcomes is that schools blindly follow them and at risk kids get no useful help.

From simply a common sense point of view, it would seem that taking the action that got you suspended was a more likely predictor of future prison than the act of facing a consequence for it.

Lets pretend that it is accurate (even though the studies are so poor) and that kids who commit acts that result in suspension find that they really enjoy being suspended. They get to stay home from school probably unsupervised and do whatever they want. This is a reward not a punishment to them. Lets say that a kid that gets expelled turns to crime and gangs because there is nothing else for them to do. OK so this is a problem.

The solution is not to make the school a free for all with no consequences. This is just going to lure more kids down this path by seeing there are no consequences and more peer pressure to participate. In these environments, kids have to choice between being the predator or being the prey. No one wants to be the prey so guess what you end up with a lot more predators because you left the worst ones in the school.

These kids should be moved to a separate school that is far more controlled with more counselors and more security guards. Anti-gang task force experts should be part of the school. Their school day should be longer and they should be monitored to complete homework. Sports and any fun activities should be predicated on good behavior only. Everything gets moved to a "you earn it" not "you get it until you lose it" model. There should be a path back into the regular home school for extended and continuous good behavior.

Yes but all that costs money. This is kind of like the de-institutionalization of the mentally ill in the 1970s and 1980s. There were significant abuses in the old mental hospitals, and there were people stuck there who shouldn't have been there. De-institutionalization successfully closed the mental hospital (financial savings) but didn't actually replace it with appropriate community services (costs money). Now jails are where a huge swath of mentally ill people end up. I can see the same thing here. Close alternative schools (save money!) but replace with additional resources to deal with these kids in their neighborhood schools (costs money) - much less likely to actually happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Right now there are tons of studies the seem to support a narrative that is usually referred to as a "schools to prison pipeline" because they show children that have been suspended have a much higher likelihood of both dropping out of school and ending up in prison.

As other folks have stated, this has led to huge nationwide pressure (so don't worry MCPS, you're not alone) to reduce suspensions at all costs. I doubt there will be any changes to this policy for a number of years.

It will be very interesting after these policies have been in place long enough for the students who attended school under these policies reach their late 20s early 30s.

If the theory is correct, there should be some significant decline in the number of people sent to prison, because (hooray!) we "eliminated" the "schools to prison pipeline."

But what if that decline doesn't happen? What if the act of getting suspended is not the causation, and instead simply a correlation?

What if all that happens is that the kids that engaged in bad behavior didn't get suspended while in school, but once they are adults out in society, they continue their previous pattern of bad behavior and now that behavior leads to prison?

If that ends up being the case, we will have lived through decades of this failed policy before schools are allowed to swing the pendulum back.

I really wish that all these educational studies would go more in depth and separate causation from correlation. They all just scratch the surface and are so poorly constructed! The outcomes is that schools blindly follow them and at risk kids get no useful help.

From simply a common sense point of view, it would seem that taking the action that got you suspended was a more likely predictor of future prison than the act of facing a consequence for it.

Lets pretend that it is accurate (even though the studies are so poor) and that kids who commit acts that result in suspension find that they really enjoy being suspended. They get to stay home from school probably unsupervised and do whatever they want. This is a reward not a punishment to them. Lets say that a kid that gets expelled turns to crime and gangs because there is nothing else for them to do. OK so this is a problem.

The solution is not to make the school a free for all with no consequences. This is just going to lure more kids down this path by seeing there are no consequences and more peer pressure to participate. In these environments, kids have to choice between being the predator or being the prey. No one wants to be the prey so guess what you end up with a lot more predators because you left the worst ones in the school.

These kids should be moved to a separate school that is far more controlled with more counselors and more security guards. Anti-gang task force experts should be part of the school. Their school day should be longer and they should be monitored to complete homework. Sports and any fun activities should be predicated on good behavior only. Everything gets moved to a "you earn it" not "you get it until you lose it" model. There should be a path back into the regular home school for extended and continuous good behavior.

You make too much sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now there are tons of studies the seem to support a narrative that is usually referred to as a "schools to prison pipeline" because they show children that have been suspended have a much higher likelihood of both dropping out of school and ending up in prison.

As other folks have stated, this has led to huge nationwide pressure (so don't worry MCPS, you're not alone) to reduce suspensions at all costs. I doubt there will be any changes to this policy for a number of years.

It will be very interesting after these policies have been in place long enough for the students who attended school under these policies reach their late 20s early 30s.

If the theory is correct, there should be some significant decline in the number of people sent to prison, because (hooray!) we "eliminated" the "schools to prison pipeline."

But what if that decline doesn't happen? What if the act of getting suspended is not the causation, and instead simply a correlation?

What if all that happens is that the kids that engaged in bad behavior didn't get suspended while in school, but once they are adults out in society, they continue their previous pattern of bad behavior and now that behavior leads to prison?

If that ends up being the case, we will have lived through decades of this failed policy before schools are allowed to swing the pendulum back.

I really wish that all these educational studies would go more in depth and separate causation from correlation. They all just scratch the surface and are so poorly constructed! The outcomes is that schools blindly follow them and at risk kids get no useful help.

From simply a common sense point of view, it would seem that taking the action that got you suspended was a more likely predictor of future prison than the act of facing a consequence for it.

Lets pretend that it is accurate (even though the studies are so poor) and that kids who commit acts that result in suspension find that they really enjoy being suspended. They get to stay home from school probably unsupervised and do whatever they want. This is a reward not a punishment to them. Lets say that a kid that gets expelled turns to crime and gangs because there is nothing else for them to do. OK so this is a problem.

The solution is not to make the school a free for all with no consequences. This is just going to lure more kids down this path by seeing there are no consequences and more peer pressure to participate. In these environments, kids have to choice between being the predator or being the prey. No one wants to be the prey so guess what you end up with a lot more predators because you left the worst ones in the school.

These kids should be moved to a separate school that is far more controlled with more counselors and more security guards. Anti-gang task force experts should be part of the school. Their school day should be longer and they should be monitored to complete homework. Sports and any fun activities should be predicated on good behavior only. Everything gets moved to a "you earn it" not "you get it until you lose it" model. There should be a path back into the regular home school for extended and continuous good behavior.

You make too much sense.

They could even get cool uniforms like matching orange jumpsuits!

[Anonymous]

Didn't they start something that URM's couldn't get in trouble more than non-URM's. That has started a whole slew of problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think people aren’t properly using restorative justice. Restorative justice doesn’t mean no consequences. It doesn't mean safety doesn’t come first either.

Also, asking a 8th grade boy to sit down with a group of adults and talk about his feelings for a few hours is a significant discouragement. Most would rather get suspended. Obviously, it can also help biuld trust and expectations as well. For quite a few kids, though this approach will not work though. It is swimming against the current of their life.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at all the posts that think the kids getting away with the most are poor minorities. The things I saw teaching at a DCUM-fave W-feeder middle would make you want to vomit. Open anti-Semitism and racism toward AAs, sexual harassment of girls, mocking students with intellectual disabilities, putting substances and objects in teachers’ drinks, non-stop cheating and plagiarism, vaping and drinking alcohol in bathrooms and locker rooms, and viewing porn on cell phones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But these are the kids who are exhibiting the majority of the disrespect and insubordination. I think that’s the crux of the issue. They’re not facing consequences because of the color of their skin, but because of the choices they make. What are schools with predominantly black/brown populations supposed to do? I think that’s what OP is saying implicitly. If you are in a focus or title 1 school then that’s the majority of your population and if black/brown students are not allowed to face consequences then no one is facing consequences. Then there’s the byproduct of brown/black kids not facing consequences for their choices but white/Asians facing consequences for the same behavior because there’s no quota for white/Asian the way there is for black/brown. It’s a flawed system all around.

I know, and many other people do too, that when it comes to children's behavior in school, whether or not it's considered "disrespect and insubordination" is affected by the child's race/ethnicity.

A shorter way of saying it is: my blond, blue-eyed kid could get away with behavior a black or Latino kid likely couldn't.

And that's exactly the opposite of what I hear from teachers and what I observe. I've been told numerous times from teachers I know that they will discipline white/Asian kids for infractions that they wouldn't for black/brown kids simply to keep the numbers somewhat balanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So why exactly can’t schools suspend or expel violent and dangerous students?

Special education laws and racial issues

It is well known that some parent groups such as MOCO NAACP parents council request MCPS to lower the suspension rate for student from some race groups. Because the students who get suspended won't be able to learn . This sounds plausible. But why good intention doesn't bring good result?

What a mischaracterization! The NAACP simply requests that black students be treated fairly. Teachers have biases too. It is entirely plausible that due to those biases, a teacher or staff will witness disruptive behavior from a student, but will treat that behavior differently depending on the child's race.

But I suppose if you feel that black and brown kids are inherently bad or misbehave in general, you are fine with the disproportionate suspensions for black and brown kids vs their white and Asian counterparts.

DP.. I do think our justice system is deeply racist, BUT, it is not helping *anyone* to keep these violent kids in regular school. The other students are being victimized twice -- once by the violent student and again by a school system that may have their heart in the right place, but is hurting these other kids.

I don't believe that anyone thinks that violent kids should be kept in school, no matter their race.

But when you have kids getting suspended for disrespect or insubordination, and those kids are disproportionately black and brown, then I believe there is a good reason for Black and Brown parents to be concerned about biases on behalf of teachers, principles and staff. And THAT is what the NAACP is trying to address.

Yes, they are perfectly responsible parents who engage well in disciplining their little angels.
It's all teacher and the society's fault.

Again, bless your heart.

Try again,this time with a thoughtful, intelligent response....if you are capable.

I doubt it.

I'm not part of this mini-thread, but I'll say this much - How is your "bless your heart" response a ". . . thoughtful, intelligent response?" claim, counterclaim, evidence, support?

Any of that you can share?????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But these are the kids who are exhibiting the majority of the disrespect and insubordination. I think that’s the crux of the issue. They’re not facing consequences because of the color of their skin, but because of the choices they make. What are schools with predominantly black/brown populations supposed to do? I think that’s what OP is saying implicitly. If you are in a focus or title 1 school then that’s the majority of your population and if black/brown students are not allowed to face consequences then no one is facing consequences. Then there’s the byproduct of brown/black kids not facing consequences for their choices but white/Asians facing consequences for the same behavior because there’s no quota for white/Asian the way there is for black/brown. It’s a flawed system all around.

I know, and many other people do too, that when it comes to children's behavior in school, whether or not it's considered "disrespect and insubordination" is affected by the child's race/ethnicity.

A shorter way of saying it is: my blond, blue-eyed kid could get away with behavior a black or Latino kid likely couldn't.

The behaviors we are referring to are not your run of the mill too much talking, hard time staying in line, etc. If your blond, blue-eyed kid is physically attacking others, spitting at teachers, saying “I’ll effing kill you” to another student etc then your blond, blue-eyed kid would likely be suspended because these no pressure to not suspend white kids. In fact, it makes the suspension rate at a school seem more equitable to central office. Your blond, blue-eyed kid would not get away with the behavior.

But by and large it’s not the blond, blue-eyed kids who are doing these things (not always, but usually). In my school (focus) we have very few blond, blue-eyes kids but we do have a lot of brown/black kids who are the ones with these behavior issues. But the brown/black kids are not facing consequences for doing these things because they’re brown/black and they’re basically untouchable. Everyone’s “hands are tied” when it comes to these students. That’s what we’re referring to here. —teacher

That's what you're talking about, when you talk about disrespect and insubordination?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But these are the kids who are exhibiting the majority of the disrespect and insubordination. I think that’s the crux of the issue. They’re not facing consequences because of the color of their skin, but because of the choices they make. What are schools with predominantly black/brown populations supposed to do? I think that’s what OP is saying implicitly. If you are in a focus or title 1 school then that’s the majority of your population and if black/brown students are not allowed to face consequences then no one is facing consequences. Then there’s the byproduct of brown/black kids not facing consequences for their choices but white/Asians facing consequences for the same behavior because there’s no quota for white/Asian the way there is for black/brown. It’s a flawed system all around.

I know, and many other people do too, that when it comes to children's behavior in school, whether or not it's considered "disrespect and insubordination" is affected by the child's race/ethnicity.

A shorter way of saying it is: my blond, blue-eyed kid could get away with behavior a black or Latino kid likely couldn't.

The behaviors we are referring to are not your run of the mill too much talking, hard time staying in line, etc. If your blond, blue-eyed kid is physically attacking others, spitting at teachers, saying “I’ll effing kill you” to another student etc then your blond, blue-eyed kid would likely be suspended because these no pressure to not suspend white kids. In fact, it makes the suspension rate at a school seem more equitable to central office. Your blond, blue-eyed kid would not get away with the behavior.

But by and large it’s not the blond, blue-eyed kids who are doing these things (not always, but usually). In my school (focus) we have very few blond, blue-eyes kids but we do have a lot of brown/black kids who are the ones with these behavior issues. But the brown/black kids are not facing consequences for doing these things because they’re brown/black and they’re basically untouchable. Everyone’s “hands are tied” when it comes to these students. That’s what we’re referring to here. —teacher

That's what you're talking about, when you talk about disrespect and insubordination?

Yes. The garden variety disrespect and insubordination is easy to handle once you find out what they’re motivated by. That’s part of the job. This new brand of insubordination and disrespect is a game changer. These kids need serious help and we’re not qualified to give it but we’re expected to. All while teaching a class of 20 something other kids. You know, actually teaching. What we signed up and trained to do. Not manage students in crisis who are putting themselves, the other students and myself at risk. I’m 5’0” tall and a lot of these kids are much bigger physically than I am. It can be very scary to everyone involved when they’re way out of control. -teacher PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But these are the kids who are exhibiting the majority of the disrespect and insubordination. I think that’s the crux of the issue. They’re not facing consequences because of the color of their skin, but because of the choices they make. What are schools with predominantly black/brown populations supposed to do? I think that’s what OP is saying implicitly. If you are in a focus or title 1 school then that’s the majority of your population and if black/brown students are not allowed to face consequences then no one is facing consequences. Then there’s the byproduct of brown/black kids not facing consequences for their choices but white/Asians facing consequences for the same behavior because there’s no quota for white/Asian the way there is for black/brown. It’s a flawed system all around.

I know, and many other people do too, that when it comes to children's behavior in school, whether or not it's considered "disrespect and insubordination" is affected by the child's race/ethnicity.

A shorter way of saying it is: my blond, blue-eyed kid could get away with behavior a black or Latino kid likely couldn't.

The behaviors we are referring to are not your run of the mill too much talking, hard time staying in line, etc. If your blond, blue-eyed kid is physically attacking others, spitting at teachers, saying “I’ll effing kill you” to another student etc then your blond, blue-eyed kid would likely be suspended because these no pressure to not suspend white kids. In fact, it makes the suspension rate at a school seem more equitable to central office. Your blond, blue-eyed kid would not get away with the behavior.

But by and large it’s not the blond, blue-eyed kids who are doing these things (not always, but usually). In my school (focus) we have very few blond, blue-eyes kids but we do have a lot of brown/black kids who are the ones with these behavior issues. But the brown/black kids are not facing consequences for doing these things because they’re brown/black and they’re basically untouchable. Everyone’s “hands are tied” when it comes to these students. That’s what we’re referring to here. —teacher

That's what you're talking about, when you talk about disrespect and insubordination?

Yes. The garden variety disrespect and insubordination is easy to handle once you find out what they’re motivated by. That’s part of the job. This new brand of insubordination and disrespect is a game changer. These kids need serious help and we’re not qualified to give it but we’re expected to. All while teaching a class of 20 something other kids. You know, actually teaching. What we signed up and trained to do. Not manage students in crisis who are putting themselves, the other students and myself at risk. I’m 5’0” tall and a lot of these kids are much bigger physically than I am. It can be very scary to everyone involved when they’re way out of control. -teacher PP

NP here - I was an elementary school teacher at a school with an ED program. Our general education/neighborhood kids were FAR worse than the students in the ED program. I had teammates who got cussed out on a daily basis, kids fighting in class, parents ignoring requests to come in for meetings. It was such a disaster. I am on childcare leave and loving every minute of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But these are the kids who are exhibiting the majority of the disrespect and insubordination. I think that’s the crux of the issue. They’re not facing consequences because of the color of their skin, but because of the choices they make. What are schools with predominantly black/brown populations supposed to do? I think that’s what OP is saying implicitly. If you are in a focus or title 1 school then that’s the majority of your population and if black/brown students are not allowed to face consequences then no one is facing consequences. Then there’s the byproduct of brown/black kids not facing consequences for their choices but white/Asians facing consequences for the same behavior because there’s no quota for white/Asian the way there is for black/brown. It’s a flawed system all around.

I know, and many other people do too, that when it comes to children's behavior in school, whether or not it's considered "disrespect and insubordination" is affected by the child's race/ethnicity.

A shorter way of saying it is: my blond, blue-eyed kid could get away with behavior a black or Latino kid likely couldn't.

The behaviors we are referring to are not your run of the mill too much talking, hard time staying in line, etc. If your blond, blue-eyed kid is physically attacking others, spitting at teachers, saying “I’ll effing kill you” to another student etc then your blond, blue-eyed kid would likely be suspended because these no pressure to not suspend white kids. In fact, it makes the suspension rate at a school seem more equitable to central office. Your blond, blue-eyed kid would not get away with the behavior.

But by and large it’s not the blond, blue-eyed kids who are doing these things (not always, but usually). In my school (focus) we have very few blond, blue-eyes kids but we do have a lot of brown/black kids who are the ones with these behavior issues. But the brown/black kids are not facing consequences for doing these things because they’re brown/black and they’re basically untouchable. Everyone’s “hands are tied” when it comes to these students. That’s what we’re referring to here. —teacher

That's what you're talking about, when you talk about disrespect and insubordination?

Yes. The garden variety disrespect and insubordination is easy to handle once you find out what they’re motivated by. That’s part of the job. This new brand of insubordination and disrespect is a game changer. These kids need serious help and we’re not qualified to give it but we’re expected to. All while teaching a class of 20 something other kids. You know, actually teaching. What we signed up and trained to do. Not manage students in crisis who are putting themselves, the other students and myself at risk. I’m 5’0” tall and a lot of these kids are much bigger physically than I am. It can be very scary to everyone involved when they’re way out of control. -teacher PP

I don't think of that as insubordination and disrespect. I think of it as assault and threatened assault.