PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You can be ethnically Jewish. That’s a fact.

You can have jewish grandparents, and, while participating not at all in Jewish religion OR in Jewish secular culture, you can call yourself a Jew, and be called a Jew by antisemites, and you can even be recognized as part of a minyan (but because you are 100% apart from Jewish religion, you will not actually help make a minyan, and you won't even know that you could) You can also admire your nose in the mirror (IF you have a nose that "looks Jewish" which of course not all Jews of completely Jewish ancestry have)

That is true, but banal. It does not interest me at all.

The most boring line of Talmud is more interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.

Are you proud of your Sardinian and Ligurian ancestors? I am not proud of mine. I am proud of the ancestors whose lives I try to extend by living out their culture and their faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can be ethnically Jewish. That’s a fact.

You can have jewish grandparents, and, while participating not at all in Jewish religion OR in Jewish secular culture, you can call yourself a Jew, and be called a Jew by antisemites, and you can even be recognized as part of a minyan (but because you are 100% apart from Jewish religion, you will not actually help make a minyan, and you won't even know that you could) You can also admire your nose in the mirror (IF you have a nose that "looks Jewish" which of course not all Jews of completely Jewish ancestry have)

That is true, but banal. It does not interest me at all.

The most boring line of Talmud is more interesting.

Cool story bro. No one asked you if you thought this was interesting. Move along if it doesn’t interest you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.

Are you proud of your Sardinian and Ligurian ancestors? I am not proud of mine. I am proud of the ancestors whose lives I try to extend by living out their culture and their faith.

Umm, yes I am. I have Russian and Ukrainian ancestors and am absolutely proud of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I would think you have to be over 50% to be considered of the Jewish race? If you think this way where do you draw the line on who is a Jewish enough vs just mixed blood? We have gone down this path before and it never works out well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Yes, my elementary school and high school in Montgomery County had swastikas painted on them, too (30 or so years ago), and it's not hard to read the news and realize that anti-Semitism still exists. But people will always hate other people for bad reasons; the fact that some jerk hates me because I'm Jewish doesn't actually affect my life much if all he can do about it is call me a kike on Twitter. I don't see any evidence that there's much structural discrimination (as opposed to impotent hate) directed at Ashkenazi Jews in the United States these days. Do you?

+1 that's what I'm saying... there are bigots everywhere, that doesn't mean there is systemic discrimination against Jews in the workplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I would think you have to be over 50% to be considered of the Jewish race? If you think this way where do you draw the line on who is a Jewish enough vs just mixed blood? We have gone down this path before and it never works out well.

Just because this fact was used by anti-Semites to justify horrific acts doesn’t mean it’s wrong to acknowledge the genetic component of Judaism.

There’s no consensus on a percentage, but I think any genetic background consistent with Ashenazi, Sephardic or other Jewish ethnic groups is enough to say you’re ethnically Jewish.

If I’m comfortable with this, as a Jew, why aren’t you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Yes, my elementary school and high school in Montgomery County had swastikas painted on them, too (30 or so years ago), and it's not hard to read the news and realize that anti-Semitism still exists. But people will always hate other people for bad reasons; the fact that some jerk hates me because I'm Jewish doesn't actually affect my life much if all he can do about it is call me a kike on Twitter. I don't see any evidence that there's much structural discrimination (as opposed to impotent hate) directed at Ashkenazi Jews in the United States these days. Do you?

+1 that's what I'm saying... there are bigots everywhere, that doesn't mean there is systemic discrimination against Jews in the workplace.

When did I claim systemic discrimination?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

Yes, my elementary school and high school in Montgomery County had swastikas painted on them, too (30 or so years ago), and it's not hard to read the news and realize that anti-Semitism still exists. But people will always hate other people for bad reasons; the fact that some jerk hates me because I'm Jewish doesn't actually affect my life much if all he can do about it is call me a kike on Twitter. I don't see any evidence that there's much structural discrimination (as opposed to impotent hate) directed at Ashkenazi Jews in the United States these days. Do you?

+1 that's what I'm saying... there are bigots everywhere, that doesn't mean there is systemic discrimination against Jews in the workplace.

When did I claim systemic discrimination?

If you wouldn't want to put "Jewish" on a workplace application for fear of being discriminated against, then you believe there is systemic racism in the workplace. Otherwise, why the fear of marking that checkox, if there was one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Fine then ethnic. Is everyone happy now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

So Op, your entire argument is to childishly stomp your feet and repeatedly scream that your point of view is a FACT and call names. Fact is, those of us who are racially a minority do not have the privilege you have of converting to Christianity or what have to in order to avoid discrimination, as many Jews have (unfortunately had to) do in the past. We don’t have the freakin’ privilege of walking into work and deciding that we’re WASPs today or conveniently leaving our skin color and facial features off of job applications and mingling, to whatever extent it’s successful for those who can. It’s insulting, and like I said, unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Fine then ethnic. Is everyone happy now?

Well.. to be fair, the thread topic was wrong, so...

My race is Asian, but my ethnicity is Korean (but my nationality is 100% American ). If I were to start a topic with a headline that stated "Koreans are a racial group", I'm pretty sure I'd get flamed by Asians and Jews and others saying how stupid I was to say that Korean is a race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.

Are you proud of your Sardinian and Ligurian ancestors? I am not proud of mine. I am proud of the ancestors whose lives I try to extend by living out their culture and their faith.

Umm, yes I am. I have Russian and Ukrainian ancestors and am absolutely proud of them.

I did not ask if you are proud of your ukrainian ancestors, who are not that far back and you or some relative you knew remembers. I am talking about the Sardinians, Ligurians, and other West Mediterranean gentiles who (IF you are of Ashkenazic Jewish ancestry) make up a large portion of your ancestry and your genetic inheritance. People whose culture you do not share, but who show up in your chromosomes.