Wash Post article on Montgomery County salaries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am an MCPS teacher who is leaving the public school system. I am sick of performing at a very high level while others coast and make the system look terrible. I believe there should be incentives and rewards for teachers who do good work, as opposed to uniform raises for all. I wish it were easier to get rid of bad teachers. Instead, the good ones flee, because the system is stuck in mediocrity and the wonderful teachers resent that the system equally rewards the great and the awful teachers. I also think the county should start tracking school retention numbers. If you want to see whether a school has decent leadership, evaluate the number of high-achieving professionals who are leaving. That will speak volumes.

While I don't necessarily disagree, how do you evaluate teacher competence? A great teacher could have a classroom full of idiots and only make a small gain despite a doing a fabulous job; a terrible teacher could have a classroom full of geniuses and make a large gain despite doing a terrible job. It's hard to measure what kids "should" learn since so much is tied up with the kids natural ability. I have friends who are teachers; apparently everybody "knows" who the bad teachers are. I'm just unaware of any way to rate teachers that's not heavily dependent on the luck if the draw in getting students.

This is true. I work in a high FARMS/ESOL school and am considered to be good at what I do, by subjective and objective measures. But if my pay starts being tied to student performance under the guise of "teacher competence", then I'm high-tailing it to a different part of the county. I can't undo the effects of poverty in 6.5 hours/day. Ultimately I would have to put my family's well-being first.

As the parent to a middle-class kid in a high FARMS/ESOL school, can I ask you a question? From the sidelines, it certainly seems like all the kids (including low income kids and ELLs) are making progress. They may not have started 2nd grade at a Q in reading, but they are making slow and steady progress from their own baselines. Do you not see the same?

Of course. But MCPS doesn't care about progress, only proficiency. A student who started 3rd grade reading at a Level 12 and now reads at a Level M has made great progress over the course of a year. But they're still reading a year below grade level and that's the data the county sees and cares about. They don't care about the child's circumstances.

As teachers we applaud progress and see how valuable and important it is. But when MCPS pulls data all they care about is proficiency.

I was going to write the exact same thing. As an ESOL teacher, I am thrilled by my students' progress. Going from zero English to reading on a level G is awesome but since this student is in 2nd grade, he didn't make his end of year benchmark. Nobody cares that all of his classmates had a 6 year head start in the English language. That doesn't matter to admins. All they care about is the data.

[Anonymous]

^It doesn't make sense that a student who doesn't even know English is expected to meet the benchmark. They should definitely change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a teacher in MCPS and I haven't heard 8%. That seems excessive and high. I have never heard of getting a raise greater than 3%.

Is the 8% over a certain number of years? The article doesn't say. I wish it included more information about that "average 8%"

And I love how the article mentions fire and police. The Post LOVES to pit fire and police against the teachers. Well done, Post.

I think the 8% is described here:

"About three-quarters of the $100 million is earmarked for the 156,000-student school system. In 2014, the county Board of Education signed an agreement with unionized teachers, principals and support staff that calls for a 2 percent general wage hike and a 3 percent “step” or longevity increase in September, followed by another step increase in March averaging an additional 3 percent for some school employees."

So it's coming from the two step increases that were making up for the years that they had salary freezes and I think the two percent general wage hike is the cost of living adjustment.

I'm not sure if all employees will get the two makeup step increases or only the ones that were employed when they had the salary freeze.

I'm pretty sure it's only the ones that were eligible for the step increase during the year it was missed. Also, I don't think it's 2 makeup step increases -- the other step increase is the normal step increase that folks would and should get during this fiscal year. Basically, the fact that they missed step increases for a number of years (not sure how many) means that a teacher with X years on the job is making the same as a new hire. Since we all know that teacher experience is really key -- and those first few years are like dog years -- it's really not fair that this isn't reflected in their pay. The more senior teachers probably aren't even eligible for the step increase. I just checked the salary scales online, and after 18 years, they aren't even eligible for regular step increases. To get that $90K that a PP mentioned, you have to have a masters and have been working more than 16 years for the County. The entry level folks are only making $48K -- and by "entry level" I mean all the folks that were hired since they stopped giving the annual step increases.

There is a ton of money wasted in this County. I pay a ton of taxes, but the one thing I will not complain about paying taxes for is to pay a better than competitive wage to our teachers, police and firefighters. I want the best of the best for those three. (And if you think we're not already losing good teacher candidates to FCPS--as well as to counties where the cost of living is less, like AA and HC, you're wrong.)

You do realize how insulting your post is to others in helping professions doing equally hard, if not harder work like social workers, nurses, and other line workers. Teachers, police and firefighters get far better pay and perks than other county employees also in the front helping lines. They also get housing and other perks others do not get. The county needs to cut out the waste and overspending.

[Anonymous]

My Mom who was a teacher told me not to go into teaching as she saw the writing on the wall with how little respect she was given by admin/parents and how people in general view teachers. She was right. I do work for the public schools but as a specialist and I feel that I am treated much better then teachers. This is unfortunate because I see first hand hand how much work goes into being a teacher and how passionate my teacher friends are about their jobs. But they are getting discouraged by curriculum changes and test scores. I would never tell my daughter to go into teaching and the DCUM crowd reminds me of that when I read threads like these. I shudder for our kids educational futures. Less people want to go into teaching as it is and many states have had to hire unqualified teachers to get warm bodies into the classrooms. It's only going to get worse as testing pressure and influx of ESOL students continue to rise.
The MCPS raise is a product of teachers giving up steps and colas years ago. In order to retain teachers you need to have a competitive salary. Working 20 years to make 90K in this area is not extravagant. My heart goes out to the social workers who have it much worse in terms of caseload, benefits and pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My Mom who was a teacher told me not to go into teaching as she saw the writing on the wall with how little respect she was given by admin/parents and how people in general view teachers. She was right. I do work for the public schools but as a specialist and I feel that I am treated much better then teachers. This is unfortunate because I see first hand hand how much work goes into being a teacher and how passionate my teacher friends are about their jobs. But they are getting discouraged by curriculum changes and test scores. I would never tell my daughter to go into teaching and the DCUM crowd reminds me of that when I read threads like these. I shudder for our kids educational futures. Less people want to go into teaching as it is and many states have had to hire unqualified teachers to get warm bodies into the classrooms. It's only going to get worse as testing pressure and influx of ESOL students continue to rise.
The MCPS raise is a product of teachers giving up steps and colas years ago. In order to retain teachers you need to have a competitive salary. Working 20 years to make 90K in this area is not extravagant. My heart goes out to the social workers who have it much worse in terms of caseload, benefits and pay.

90K for 9months is equivalent to 130K/yr or even 140K range for those without any pension, other good benefit, and flexibility. With the new healthcare law, in the private sector, thousands more need to be sent to basic coverage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Mom who was a teacher told me not to go into teaching as she saw the writing on the wall with how little respect she was given by admin/parents and how people in general view teachers. She was right. I do work for the public schools but as a specialist and I feel that I am treated much better then teachers. This is unfortunate because I see first hand hand how much work goes into being a teacher and how passionate my teacher friends are about their jobs. But they are getting discouraged by curriculum changes and test scores. I would never tell my daughter to go into teaching and the DCUM crowd reminds me of that when I read threads like these. I shudder for our kids educational futures. Less people want to go into teaching as it is and many states have had to hire unqualified teachers to get warm bodies into the classrooms. It's only going to get worse as testing pressure and influx of ESOL students continue to rise.
The MCPS raise is a product of teachers giving up steps and colas years ago. In order to retain teachers you need to have a competitive salary. Working 20 years to make 90K in this area is not extravagant. My heart goes out to the social workers who have it much worse in terms of caseload, benefits and pay.

90K for 9months is equivalent to 130K/yr or even 140K range for those without any pension, other good benefit, and flexibility. With the new healthcare law, in the private sector, thousands more need to be sent to basic coverage.

False. There is no flex time or flex hours. There is no telework. There is no paid vacation. The equivalency you suggest is not correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's back breaking but you are also home for bus pickup? Doesn't sound so tough. I'm happy if I'm home for dinner.

Try managing 130 kids each day in a school that's 75% FARMs.

If you can do it - meet their needs on a daily basis - then you deserve a raise, too.

your choice to enter that specific career

If you're that unhappy with your choice, make a change. But please don't enter teaching. There are enough negative people bashing our field.

I'm pretty sure we switched to 2.0 because not all of the kids were having their needs met. Glad to hear that problem has been resolved.

???

No curriculum framework can erase the effects of poverty.

Is that your point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8% raises would be insane...especially for a teacher who has summers off and a tremendous amount of vacation days (winter and spring break, holidays).

Many of us work over our breaks - planning and grading.

<a bunch of stuff snipped>

But people in private industry work weekends and way past 8 hours a day. I'm the daughter of a teacher and my mother worked plenty when she wasn't "supposed" to. This argument is weak. It's not like teaching is the only profession that requires overtime.

fine

I didn't say I'm in this as a competition. People make choices.

I teach. Others choose law or medicine or engineering or communications.

I've been on the other side. I commuted about 2.5 hours each day and worked 9 to 5. Now my commute is 30 minutes. My husband is at work in 20 minutes.

Again, we're doing what's best for our family. But I'm not making $200K on my own. I have friends who make that much or more.

again, choices

I'm surprised by your attitude, however - considering you're the child of a teacher. I would think you would have more respect for the profession.

I respect the profession, but nobody likes a whiner.

My MIL is a retired teacher, and she understands that she has a pension and Cadillac health benefits that most of peers do not. She recognizes that she was able to be home for the bus stop pick up and off on summers, while her peers did not. She has never whined about her profession, her pay, or her benefits.

Can you name another profession where people whine as much? I can't. Does the teachers lounge foster such kvetching?

Your MIL is retired and probably left under the OLD system. Ask her to tell you about the "old" system versus our current system.

Furthermore, what did your FIL do? Was he a teacher? I find that the most comfortable teachers (retired or working) have spouses (husbands or wives) with high-paying careers. So retirement isn't something to worry about.

There are many factors at play here. Why not talk to a current ESOL teacher in a high-FARMs school and then come back and post.

But please don't think that you MIL speaks for all of us. For someone who probably claims to be educated, you make a big generalization based in ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8% raises would be insane...especially for a teacher who has summers off and a tremendous amount of vacation days (winter and spring break, holidays).

Many of us work over our breaks - planning and grading.

<a bunch of stuff snipped>

But people in private industry work weekends and way past 8 hours a day. I'm the daughter of a teacher and my mother worked plenty when she wasn't "supposed" to. This argument is weak. It's not like teaching is the only profession that requires overtime.

fine

I didn't say I'm in this as a competition. People make choices.

I teach. Others choose law or medicine or engineering or communications.

I've been on the other side. I commuted about 2.5 hours each day and worked 9 to 5. Now my commute is 30 minutes. My husband is at work in 20 minutes.

Again, we're doing what's best for our family. But I'm not making $200K on my own. I have friends who make that much or more.

again, choices

I'm surprised by your attitude, however - considering you're the child of a teacher. I would think you would have more respect for the profession.

I respect the profession, but nobody likes a whiner.

My MIL is a retired teacher, and she understands that she has a pension and Cadillac health benefits that most of peers do not. She recognizes that she was able to be home for the bus stop pick up and off on summers, while her peers did not. She has never whined about her profession, her pay, or her benefits.

Can you name another profession where people whine as much? I can't. Does the teachers lounge foster such kvetching?

Your MIL is retired and probably left under the OLD system. Ask her to tell you about the "old" system versus our current system.

Furthermore, what did your FIL do? Was he a teacher? I find that the most comfortable teachers (retired or working) have spouses (husbands or wives) with high-paying careers. So retirement isn't something to worry about.

There are many factors at play here. Why not talk to a current ESOL teacher in a high-FARMs school and then come back and post.

But please don't think that you MIL speaks for all of us. For someone who probably claims to be educated, you make a big generalization based in ignorance.

FIL was a teacher, too. They retired within the last couple years.

I can't follow the rest of your post. My criticism is of the constant whining.

Didn't the ESOL teacher know what she was gettin into when she earned her degree and accepted the position?

I have two teacher friends who proactively sought jobs at title I schools because they enjoy the small class size and working with the children (and families) who tend to appreciate them...so I don't understand your point, pp.

As others have pointed out, lots of people have challenging jobs, earn less money, and manage not to whine.

Nurses
Social Workers
Nursing Home Caregivers
Aides who care for the elderly and people with special needs
Homeless Service Providers
Hospice Care Workers
Legal Aid Attorneys

And they work 12 months a year, don't have Cadillac health insurance, don't get weeks off for Christmas and Easter, etc.

Do the math and compare the hourly rate for a teacher salary vs. another profession...you work less and get paid much more.

Teachers know the drill before they accept the job. There will never be a teacher shortage in mcps because it's common knowledge that mcps pays well and provides excellent benefits. As a pp already said, it's a sweet gig. She and her teacher husband are doing great, and they have summers off.

Just to clarify: the vast majority of the population respects teachers...just like we respect nurses and legal aid lawyers...we just find the whining irritating. If you don't like your job and think you are underpaid, then move on. But please don't debate the issue without acknowledging the myriad other professions that are uber challenging and pay far less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As others have pointed out, lots of people have challenging jobs, earn less money, and manage not to whine.

Nurses
Social Workers
Nursing Home Caregivers
Aides who care for the elderly and people with special needs
Homeless Service Providers
Hospice Care Workers
Legal Aid Attorneys

Your premise is false. These people whine plenty. As they should, because they have plenty to whine about -- or, as I prefer to call it, complain.

Also, the social usefulness of one's work, or the difficulty of one's work, does not affect one's pay. Here is what does affect one's pay:

1. How much the employer is able to pay
2. How much the employer is willing to pay, in order to get an employee with given skills and competence

Plenty of people deserve to get paid more (public defenders and home health aides, for example). Plenty of people deserve to get paid less (you have your ideas, I'm sure, just as I have mine). But deserving has nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Teachers with skills - not just teaching to tests nonstop.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6749032

Oh, yes, and Common Core? Well, since teachers are highly educated professionals there is no need for tight central government control of what or how teachers teach in Finland. Teaching and learning are highly individualized in schools and customized to the needs of children and communities. Teaching is such a popular profession in Finland that only the lucky ones are selected to teach. 90 percent of teachers and happy with their work and most of them continue teaching until the end of their working life. Sounds too good to be true? Propaganda, perhaps? Welcome and take a look.
Good further readings about Finland:
- Sahlberg, P. (2015). Finnish Lessons 2.0. What can the world learn from educational change in Finland. New York, NY: Teachers College Press.

Montgomery County public schools are crap and 1/3 of the people there send their kids to private. But by all means put in tons more money for more of the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As others have pointed out, lots of people have challenging jobs, earn less money, and manage not to whine.

Nurses
Social Workers
Nursing Home Caregivers
Aides who care for the elderly and people with special needs
Homeless Service Providers
Hospice Care Workers
Legal Aid Attorneys

Your premise is false. These people whine plenty. As they should, because they have plenty to whine about -- or, as I prefer to call it, complain.

Also, the social usefulness of one's work, or the difficulty of one's work, does not affect one's pay. Here is what does affect one's pay:

1. How much the employer is able to pay
2. How much the employer is willing to pay, in order to get an employee with given skills and competence

Plenty of people deserve to get paid more (public defenders and home health aides, for example). Plenty of people deserve to get paid less (you have your ideas, I'm sure, just as I have mine). But deserving has nothing to do with it.

Sure. But the bottom line is that everyone knows what they are signing up for.

PS - Public defenders earn far more than legal aid lawyers (and they enjoy government health care and retirement benefits).

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous

Montgomery County public schools are crap and 1/3 of the people there send their kids to private. But by all means put in tons more money for more of the same.

What is your information source for this statement?

[Anonymous]

So many posters so much insanity.
WE OWE TEACHERS the 8% we negotiated!

The board of ed negotiated this back in 2014.
AFTER it was negotiated, WE REELECTED two of four to THE BOARD OF ED.
If the two new members were elected because MC voters all hated the contract then they should have done something about it.
Basically, WE "RATIFIED" the negotiated contract.
Now just before it kicks in, the crazy County Council, who also could have done something about it over the last two years, is just trying to stir up #%^%!

If you don't like it, I'm sure there are equally crazy candidates running on the platform of NO TEACHER RAISES EVER this fall.


"the 8% is described here:

"About three-quarters of the $100 million is earmarked for the 156,000-student school system. In 2014, the county Board of Education signed an agreement with unionized teachers, principals and support staff that calls for a 2 percent general wage hike and a 3 percent “step” or longevity increase in September, followed by another step increase in March averaging an additional 3 percent for some school employees."

So it's coming from the two step increases that were making up for the years that they had salary freezes and I think the two percent general wage hike is the cost of living adjustment.

I'm not sure if all employees will get the two makeup step increases or only the ones that were employed when they had the salary freeze."

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is this: our economy suffered a recession, and during that time many lost their businesses, jobs, benefits, etc. Most did not receive raises or step increases during that time (in any industry). We went three years without raises, and then received a paltry 3%. Nobody at my company is lobbying for back pay or to adjust salaries now by adding in what we might have received had there not been a recession.

It is what it is. The county can't afford it, and the republican governor you people elected cut funding for education in our county (no surprise).