American College systems is such a waste of time and resources!

[Anonymous]

School

[Anonymous]

I also have experience with two educational systems, and agree that compared to a British system US kids have more classes not related to the major. However, unlike the other systems, kids don't have to choose their area of focus at 13 or 14...and I like that

[Anonymous]

As a STEM major, the humanities classes I took were very enlightening. I can easily say I am a better person for having had that education, even though you never would have been able to convince 18-year-old me that this would happen.

There are many purposes to higher education. One is to learn a vocation. Another is to learn how to view people and events through a broader lens and to understand the vast differences between people and cultures.

I think a physician, in particular, would have a great deal to gain from this knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found the courses taken outside of my field to be very broadening, and I still find them useful today, decades later. The world is becoming more interdisciplinary, not less. Witness archaeology, which used to be about learning about ancient civilizations, and maybe a little geology. Now that field uses biology, including genetic analysis, materials science, and linear algebra.

I am an economist, but I have to speak to a lot of scientists. When I speak to European scientists, who studied one subject at university, they can't define economics, and have no clue what I do. They also seem shocked that I know anything about their fields. My American scientist friends all understand what an economist does, as they took economics courses in college. In turn, I understand what they do, at least in a general sense.

I also find that when I speak to Europeans, some are having a hard time with living in a multicultural society. Prejudice and stereotyping run rampant, as does discrimination in the job market. We of course still have discrimination, but we have 60 years of case law to assist its victims. I think European universities could use some of the immigration history and multicultural studies courses that all US university students have to take.

Apparently you would have needed a couple more years of undergrad to transcend your little American bubble. Your last paragraph is hilarious in its complete lack of self-awareness and rampant stereotyping.

Actually there's a good bit of truth in the last paragraph. Europeans seem to preach diversity but not actually practice it.

Fascinating. In a comment criticizing "rampant stereotyping," you group 400 million people and 20+ quite different nations into "Europeans."

You need to spend some real time there, and discover the differences between say Norway and Ireland and Spain and the UK and Germany. And their regions within, of course.

Btw, the ones often "preaching diversity" are Americans. Europeans tend to preach more about their safety net and culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[quote ]

What kind of university program requires P.E. classes? Really, I truly want to know. I was not required to take ANY P.E. classes in college, and the only person I know who WAS taking P.E. type courses in college was training to be a P.E. teacher. Tell us, OP, where did your children go to college and what programs did they complete?

I went to a s hooligans which required 2 semesters of PE plus swimming...you couldn't graduate without passing your swim test unless you are physically compromised

Columbia? They've had a swim test since the Revolution when it was feared students would have to swim the Hudson. In fact, most colleges we toured, including several Ivies, require PE. At several it seems like you can satisfy the requirement with yoga or climbing rock walls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you haven't been through an American University, you really can't judge.

I was hoping your post would talk about how they raise tuition to cover gyms, fancy dorms and amenities. I have only good things to say about the education I received though.

My children have and I have come to this conclusion having had conversations with them. So much money goes into "general ed" classes such as P.E. or Public Speaking 101. And you are correct, the students do NOt need fancy dormitories or state of the art laundry facilities or Gourmet cafeteria food. Excess at its worst.

So what Pakistani universities will your children be attending?

know anyone who turned down Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Duke to go to a uni in Pakistan?
It's ludicrous, of course.
The flow goes all the other way.

[Anonymous]

the point of the American education system is not to teach you skills like a trained monkey but to teach you to think. Skills used to be the responsibility of employers but now they don't want the expense because either you are going to quit for a better job or you will be fired for someone cheaper. As schools push the agenda of entrepreneurship they have to push the soft skills involved in management and creativity. These don't come out of the circuit boards in ECE they come from the other side of campus. You paid for an education you may as well get the whole tour while your there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The longer I observe the American college system, the more I am confused by it. In America, an average college major requires you to take 10-12 classes. You get 4 years to complete them. It takes 2 years tops to complete those courses and the other two years are usually squandered away by students because college here is a 4 year vacation paid for by mommy and daddy. Most schools do not really provide much academic rigor and are just easy diploma factories. Also, whats up with the "college experience?" What does that even mean? You go to school to specialize in a field so you can get your degree and join the workforce.

Don't even get me started on the medical education system here. A student takes 4 classes in undergrad to qualify as "premed" and then spends another 4 years getting a medical degree. Most other countries have medical colleges where students get MDs after graduating college!

This is mostly true. It's why having a major in something can mean the person actually knows nothing about the subject at all. However, not all colleges are equal. We have thousands of schools, and they all want to stay in business, so standards can be quite low. They have to graduate a certain percentage of students, so a degree doesn't mean anything by itself. However, the top schools still have high standards, and the rest vary by department.

The attitude that college is a 4 year vacation was pervasive up until recently, when people realized they were going to be paying for that vacation for the rest of their lives. I think it's gradually changing and students are becoming more practical about choosing a major based on more than just what's "interesting," and making their time count so that they can get a job later.

But yes, your observations are all spot on. However, Pakistani higher education is not known for being rigorous, despite your claims, especially in medicine. Medical schools accept only our very best students, and don't seem to have lowered their standards any, so we still have an overall pool of pretty smart doctors. I would not want any doctor who was 22 years old, no matter how rigorous his first 4 years of college were.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the point of the American education system is not to teach you skills like a trained monkey but to teach you to think. Skills used to be the responsibility of employers but now they don't want the expense because either you are going to quit for a better job or you will be fired for someone cheaper. As schools push the agenda of entrepreneurship they have to push the soft skills involved in management and creativity. These don't come out of the circuit boards in ECE they come from the other side of campus. You paid for an education you may as well get the whole tour while your there.

If that's the goal of our system, then it is failing miserably. I teach in a college and have met very students who can, or even want to think. Most are indeed trained monkeys, and lazy ones at that.

[Anonymous]

There are other ways to get educated than the American one. 3 year degree, shorter and more efficient, almost free to boot.
I call BS on the "whole college experience" kool-aid.

http://www.bachelorsportal.eu/articles/1042/tuition-free-universities-in-finland-norway-and-germany.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

The system you describe wasn't "designed" at all. Sure, plenty of wealthy families along with people who pretend to be wealthy are convinced they need go to overpriced schools and earn useless liberal arts degrees which do not relate to any career that allows a person to earn a living. Spoiled kids party every night, don't study, and earn poor grades. Then they complain that they can't find a job to pay off their loans. This is the result of very poor planning and counseling. It is not a guaranteed outcome.

Nobody said you had to go to a private university that costs $50,000 per year in tuition. In-state universities are very good and thousands of students come out ready for a career or post-graduate education (such as medical school which is clearly your goal for your children). You may even find you live within driving distance so your children don't have to live in the dormitories (which are expensive and hardly luxurious). Half of the students attending the University of Maryland Medical School received their undergraduate degrees from the University of Maryland.

OP here.

Many of the families we know in Northern Virgina who come from Iran and Pakistan seen their children to George Mason University. Unlike other colleges this is mostly a commuter school with a significant population of its students living at home with their parents and or in off campus apartment. They also usually hold jobs and are some of the best student I have met. They're well rounded fully functioning adults who live in the real world and go on to get great first jobs in Accounting and Finance upon graduation.

You mean like the ones who hang out in clubs, drive fast cars and get into car accidents?

GMU kids are great. Most hold some type of a part time job and live at home with their wealthy Persian family and are fully immersed in the DMV life. They graduate as fully functioning adults already integrated into the NOVA culture compared to a lot of sheletered Sorority girls from other colleges who can't start a sentence without playing with their blonde hair and saying tons of "likes" between words.

This is one of the saddest and most pathetic statements I've seen on DCUM. OP - you are actually trying to make an argument using an old and tired stereotype. Only those who have a lack of analytical and critical thinking skills believe that they are "winning" an argument with this type debate. If I were a Pakistani woman I would be ashamed to call you a fellow countryman. Don't think it's not noticed that your need to put others down in order to make yourself feel better includes a deeply misogynistic message about blonde women. As a PP pointed out you are probably bitter because your kids (or you) were rejected from a better known university. Although GMU is a fine school and has gained a better reputation in recent years it still has a long way to go to be in the same rankings as some of the other universities to which I'm sure you're referring.

Also, you'll need to wrap your head around the concept of different cultures. The American college culture is one which includes living on campus for many. There is a reason for this which not only includes the life-long lessons of becoming an independent and learning about yourself and others, but also a majority of Americans attend their state, public university which is usually not in their town. They would have to travel too far to commute so they live on campus. It's a time in life which an American kid becomes an adult because they are forced to take care of themselves.

And trust me, no one can call themselves a "fully functioning" adult as long as they are living with mommy and daddy and having everything paid for them and taken care of them. I've actually known plenty of these GMU students and their wealthy Persian families...they are NOT fully functioning adults! Mommy does their laundry and prepares meals while they go out and party. They may not be on a campus doing it, but the are partying non the less.

Educate yourself and evaluate your need to put others down in order to make yourself feel better!

PLEASE get over yourself!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

The system you describe wasn't "designed" at all. Sure, plenty of wealthy families along with people who pretend to be wealthy are convinced they need go to overpriced schools and earn useless liberal arts degrees which do not relate to any career that allows a person to earn a living. Spoiled kids party every night, don't study, and earn poor grades. Then they complain that they can't find a job to pay off their loans. This is the result of very poor planning and counseling. It is not a guaranteed outcome.

Nobody said you had to go to a private university that costs $50,000 per year in tuition. In-state universities are very good and thousands of students come out ready for a career or post-graduate education (such as medical school which is clearly your goal for your children). You may even find you live within driving distance so your children don't have to live in the dormitories (which are expensive and hardly luxurious). Half of the students attending the University of Maryland Medical School received their undergraduate degrees from the University of Maryland.

OP here.

Many of the families we know in Northern Virgina who come from Iran and Pakistan seen their children to George Mason University. Unlike other colleges this is mostly a commuter school with a significant population of its students living at home with their parents and or in off campus apartment. They also usually hold jobs and are some of the best student I have met. They're well rounded fully functioning adults who live in the real world and go on to get great first jobs in Accounting and Finance upon graduation.

You mean like the ones who hang out in clubs, drive fast cars and get into car accidents?

GMU kids are great. Most hold some type of a part time job and live at home with their wealthy Persian family and are fully immersed in the DMV life. They graduate as fully functioning adults already integrated into the NOVA culture compared to a lot of sheletered Sorority girls from other colleges who can't start a sentence without playing with their blonde hair and saying tons of "likes" between words.

This is one of the saddest and most pathetic statements I've seen on DCUM. OP - you are actually trying to make an argument using an old and tired stereotype. Only those who have a lack of analytical and critical thinking skills believe that they are "winning" an argument with this type debate. If I were a Pakistani woman I would be ashamed to call you a fellow countryman. Don't think it's not noticed that your need to put others down in order to make yourself feel better includes a deeply misogynistic message about blonde women. As a PP pointed out you are probably bitter because your kids (or you) were rejected from a better known university. Although GMU is a fine school and has gained a better reputation in recent years it still has a long way to go to be in the same rankings as some of the other universities to which I'm sure you're referring.

Also, you'll need to wrap your head around the concept of different cultures. The American college culture is one which includes living on campus for many. There is a reason for this which not only includes the life-long lessons of becoming an independent and learning about yourself and others, but also a majority of Americans attend their state, public university which is usually not in their town. They would have to travel too far to commute so they live on campus. It's a time in life which an American kid becomes an adult because they are forced to take care of themselves.

And trust me, no one can call themselves a "fully functioning" adult as long as they are living with mommy and daddy and having everything paid for them and taken care of them. I've actually known plenty of these GMU students and their wealthy Persian families...they are NOT fully functioning adults! Mommy does their laundry and prepares meals while they go out and party. They may not be on a campus doing it, but the are partying non the less.

Educate yourself and evaluate your need to put others down in order to make yourself feel better!

PLEASE get over yourself!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

Since I am a strong believer in the value of a liberal arts education, I strongly disagree that general ed requirements are unnecessary. I was a political science major in college, but I also was required to take classes in other disciplines that were of interest or of use to me. I took calculus, French, sociology, and economic classes that were not required for my major. I also minored in English literature and so took classes in Shakespeare, 20th century British lit, early American lit, black American lit, modern drama, and a seminar on Faulkner. These classes contributed to my developing analytic skills, helped honed my writing skills, and sometimes were just plain fascinating. (The Faulkner seminar may have been the best class I ever took, including grad school.) These general ed classes helped make me a more educated, well-rounded person. I also was required to take 4 PE classes, in which I learned golf and archery, played soccer, and lifted weights. I don't believe those classes were a waste of my time.

Living in a dorm brought me life-long friends, coping skills, getting-along-with-others skills. I went to college 600 miles from home and was completely responsible for my own care and keeping for the first time in my life. I carefully budgeted my spending money to make sure I had enough to buy the books and supplies I needed as well as the fun I wanted. I paid my small number of bills and balanced my checking account. I cleaned my bathroom and washed my dishes. When I had medical issues, I took responsibility for going to the health center (or to the hospital when I broke my foot). In short, it was really good for me to go away from home and live at college. I had a happy family life, but taking care of yourself is another thing entirely. Had I remained at home for college, I would have continued to eat my mother's cooking and generally relied on my parents for things I was capable of doing for myself. IOW, staying home might have *delayed* my maturation process, not encouraged it.

Yes, I also had plenty of social life (though I was not involved in greek life). And that was a learning experience as well.

I graduated from college owing about $16k (in today's dollars). It was easily the best money I've spent in my life, and it was easily paid back.

Do I think children need to go away to college to get a good education and grow up? No. Do I think all children *should* go away to college? No. Do I think going away to college is worth borrowing $100k for? Absolutely not. (But borrowing some amount less than the equivalent of your expected first year salary after college can be a very reasonable investment.) Assuming no medical or other problems that require proximity to home, do I want my own kids to go away to college? Definitely yes.

+1

I am an involved citizen and valued worker because of my excellent liberal arts education at a top SLAC. I write well and am a sought after public speaker. Because of these skills I have advanced in a STEM career very quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

Since I am a strong believer in the value of a liberal arts education, I strongly disagree that general ed requirements are unnecessary. I was a political science major in college, but I also was required to take classes in other disciplines that were of interest or of use to me. I took calculus, French, sociology, and economic classes that were not required for my major. I also minored in English literature and so took classes in Shakespeare, 20th century British lit, early American lit, black American lit, modern drama, and a seminar on Faulkner. These classes contributed to my developing analytic skills, helped honed my writing skills, and sometimes were just plain fascinating. (The Faulkner seminar may have been the best class I ever took, including grad school.) These general ed classes helped make me a more educated, well-rounded person. I also was required to take 4 PE classes, in which I learned golf and archery, played soccer, and lifted weights. I don't believe those classes were a waste of my time.

Living in a dorm brought me life-long friends, coping skills, getting-along-with-others skills. I went to college 600 miles from home and was completely responsible for my own care and keeping for the first time in my life. I carefully budgeted my spending money to make sure I had enough to buy the books and supplies I needed as well as the fun I wanted. I paid my small number of bills and balanced my checking account. I cleaned my bathroom and washed my dishes. When I had medical issues, I took responsibility for going to the health center (or to the hospital when I broke my foot). In short, it was really good for me to go away from home and live at college. I had a happy family life, but taking care of yourself is another thing entirely. Had I remained at home for college, I would have continued to eat my mother's cooking and generally relied on my parents for things I was capable of doing for myself. IOW, staying home might have *delayed* my maturation process, not encouraged it.

Yes, I also had plenty of social life (though I was not involved in greek life). And that was a learning experience as well.

I graduated from college owing about $16k (in today's dollars). It was easily the best money I've spent in my life, and it was easily paid back.

Do I think children need to go away to college to get a good education and grow up? No. Do I think all children *should* go away to college? No. Do I think going away to college is worth borrowing $100k for? Absolutely not. (But borrowing some amount less than the equivalent of your expected first year salary after college can be a very reasonable investment.) Assuming no medical or other problems that require proximity to home, do I want my own kids to go away to college? Definitely yes.

+1

I am an involved citizen and valued worker because of my excellent liberal arts education at a top SLAC. I write well and am a sought after public speaker. Because of these skills I have advanced in a STEM career very quickly.

Sorry to say, you come across a well-trained narcissist more than anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not reading all of the responses but I went to 2 different colleges. I had to take 5 courses per semester times 8 semesters (fall and spring for 4 yrs). Not sure where the OP got 10-12 courses.

often only 10-12 are needed for the major.