American College systems is such a waste of time and resources!

[Anonymous]

I'm Pakistani and went to a top, expensive LAC. Thankfully, I didn't have to pay the expense- I got a full scholarship. I have not found my educational experience to be at all wasteful- in fact, the courses which have been more instrumental to my growth and upbringing were the ones in the humanities and social sciences (I majored in Biology). My top LAC is a feeder for the best medical schools in the country because our competitive medical schools aren't only looking for smart students, which are a dime a dozen, but also compassionate, charitable ones whom can think critically about their position in society and know how to interact within systemic inequalities of race, class, and others that they will be sure to see in the medical industry. I studied abroad for a semester at Oxford and found the atmosphere to be rigid, inflexible, and unbelievably elitist. I see the draw of the intense focus that other schools place on one discipline, but I think it's asking too much for an 18 year old to know what it is they want to do by that age and not giving the room to explore and develop. The top colleges in the US are making commitments to educating more and more low-income/first-gen students far more than the top schools elsewhere- and that includes international students.

[Anonymous]

And yes, I realize the sticker cost is not affordable and that there is a group in the middle-class being shuttered out by costs. I think it is deplorable and I wish these colleges, with their large endowments (the largest in the world of any college, actually) had more equitable financial aid policies instead of just investing in low-income students. But given Pakistan's average income, someone who is upper-class there (income USD $60000) could get close to a full-ride here at one of the top universities or liberal arts college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?

The whole system is designed in a strange way.

Since I am a strong believer in the value of a liberal arts education, I strongly disagree that general ed requirements are unnecessary. I was a political science major in college, but I also was required to take classes in other disciplines that were of interest or of use to me. I took calculus, French, sociology, and economic classes that were not required for my major. I also minored in English literature and so took classes in Shakespeare, 20th century British lit, early American lit, black American lit, modern drama, and a seminar on Faulkner. These classes contributed to my developing analytic skills, helped honed my writing skills, and sometimes were just plain fascinating. (The Faulkner seminar may have been the best class I ever took, including grad school.) These general ed classes helped make me a more educated, well-rounded person. I also was required to take 4 PE classes, in which I learned golf and archery, played soccer, and lifted weights. I don't believe those classes were a waste of my time.

Living in a dorm brought me life-long friends, coping skills, getting-along-with-others skills. I went to college 600 miles from home and was completely responsible for my own care and keeping for the first time in my life. I carefully budgeted my spending money to make sure I had enough to buy the books and supplies I needed as well as the fun I wanted. I paid my small number of bills and balanced my checking account. I cleaned my bathroom and washed my dishes. When I had medical issues, I took responsibility for going to the health center (or to the hospital when I broke my foot). In short, it was really good for me to go away from home and live at college. I had a happy family life, but taking care of yourself is another thing entirely. Had I remained at home for college, I would have continued to eat my mother's cooking and generally relied on my parents for things I was capable of doing for myself. IOW, staying home might have *delayed* my maturation process, not encouraged it.

Yes, I also had plenty of social life (though I was not involved in greek life). And that was a learning experience as well.

I graduated from college owing about $16k (in today's dollars). It was easily the best money I've spent in my life, and it was easily paid back.

Do I think children need to go away to college to get a good education and grow up? No. Do I think all children *should* go away to college? No. Do I think going away to college is worth borrowing $100k for? Absolutely not. (But borrowing some amount less than the equivalent of your expected first year salary after college can be a very reasonable investment.) Assuming no medical or other problems that require proximity to home, do I want my own kids to go away to college? Definitely yes.

+1

I am an involved citizen and valued worker because of my excellent liberal arts education at a top SLAC. I write well and am a sought after public speaker. Because of these skills I have advanced in a STEM career very quickly.

Sorry to say, you come across a well-trained narcissist more than anything else.

+1

[Anonymous]

The phenomenon of spending a fortune to send Junior off to school for 4 years so he can have a special experience is very much an upper/middle class thing. It is not the norm for the majority of Americans.

DCUM posters are disproportionately wealthy and educated compared to the average American, so I definitely wouldn't base any ideas about what Americans do by stuff you read here.

[Anonymous]

Eh. I am from Europe and OP has a point. I don't really understand this notion that someone needs to go live in a 11x11 cinder block room with another human, eat in a cafeteria every day, and go to parties on the weekend to become an adult. Going away to college is a pretty uniquely American phenomenon...

[Anonymous]

i am feim europe as will and OP makes a lot of good points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I am from Europe and OP has a point. I don't really understand this notion that someone needs to go live in a 11x11 cinder block room with another human, eat in a cafeteria every day, and go to parties on the weekend to become an adult. Going away to college is a pretty uniquely American phenomenon...

Is that what you've reduced college to? You do realize that there are academic requirements as well and that there are many statistics that demonstrate the earning gap between college graduates and those without a college degree. I would agree that a four year college is certainly not for everybody but the advantages of a degree are indisputable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP wants to hold up Pakistan as the educational model for the U.S., I'm not going to stop him. However, I will also conclude that he is very ignorant and hasn't attended a decent university himself.

This is OP.

I am not foolish enough to want to hold up Pakistani Education system as the model for the U.S. We are a poor nation with a lot of issues.

As an American, I have been through the American education system as have my children and as someone who is foreign born, I am able to objectively look at the way the American higher education system is a waste most of the time.

In America college is not an institution of higher education but an "experience" where 18 year olds go into so they can play and party and socialize on their parents' dime for 4 years. Most of the curriculum for the first two years is overpriced if not downright unecessary. Students spend the first 2 years finishing up various "general ed" requirements. In a sesmester, a student takes 2 or 3 major courses and the rest of it is overpriced fluff. Classes end at around 11 am to 5pm per day. For the rest of the day the student goes and sleeps in his overpriced dormitory and then goes and partakes in unnecessary social rituals such as greek life. There are parties full of underage drinking almost every night. Some children get hurt.

So students live in this strange bubble for 4 years and then graduate with 100k in debt or more. Why can't they just take classes and live amonsgt normal people instead of being on a "campus" for 4 years?


The whole system is designed in a strange way.

This is ridiculous. The true strength of the American system is its diversity. There are a wide variety of schools with a wide variety of philosophies and costs. If you don't like this particular philosophy, go to MIT, Caltech, or other such school. Whatever your philosophy of education is, you'll find it in the US system at a variety of prices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[quote ]

What kind of university program requires P.E. classes? Really, I truly want to know. I was not required to take ANY P.E. classes in college, and the only person I know who WAS taking P.E. type courses in college was training to be a P.E. teacher. Tell us, OP, where did your children go to college and what programs did they complete?

I went to a s hooligans which required 2 semesters of PE plus swimming...you couldn't graduate without passing your swim test unless you are physically compromised

me too. did you go to Gettysburg college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[quote ]

What kind of university program requires P.E. classes? Really, I truly want to know. I was not required to take ANY P.E. classes in college, and the only person I know who WAS taking P.E. type courses in college was training to be a P.E. teacher. Tell us, OP, where did your children go to college and what programs did they complete?

I went to a s hooligans which required 2 semesters of PE plus swimming...you couldn't graduate without passing your swim test unless you are physically compromised

me too. did you go to Gettysburg college?

Cornell still requires PE and swimming test......which is just absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this is so, then why is the U.S. consistently ranked at the very top of all countries for higher education?

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-Issues/2012/0516/College-rankings-Which-countries-have-the-best-education-systems/No.-1-United-States

http://www.universitas21.com/article/projects/details/152/u21-ranking-of-national-higher-education-systems

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2010-11/world-ranking/analysis/usa-top-universities

And medicine!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I am from Europe and OP has a point. I don't really understand this notion that someone needs to go live in a 11x11 cinder block room with another human, eat in a cafeteria every day, and go to parties on the weekend to become an adult. Going away to college is a pretty uniquely American phenomenon...

Is that what you've reduced college to? You do realize that there are academic requirements as well and that there are many statistics that demonstrate the earning gap between college graduates and those without a college degree. I would agree that a four year college is certainly not for everybody but the advantages of a degree are indisputable.

but this hardly proves importance of college experience or even that any valuable knowledge is gained in college.

students who are smarter and harder worker have college degrees. those who aren't do not. the smarter, harder working students are admitted to better colleges.

the data showing college degree salary advantages could result simply from college degree serving a as a sorting mechanism. doesn't prove that this is the case, but it is certainly a possibility, and even if this possibility does not explain 100% of variation it could explain a substantial proportion.

if there were knowledge tests and IQ tests for jobs college degree could become entirely obsolete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I am from Europe and OP has a point. I don't really understand this notion that someone needs to go live in a 11x11 cinder block room with another human, eat in a cafeteria every day, and go to parties on the weekend to become an adult. Going away to college is a pretty uniquely American phenomenon...

Is that what you've reduced college to? You do realize that there are academic requirements as well and that there are many statistics that demonstrate the earning gap between college graduates and those without a college degree. I would agree that a four year college is certainly not for everybody but the advantages of a degree are indisputable.

but this hardly proves importance of college experience or even that any valuable knowledge is gained in college.

students who are smarter and harder worker have college degrees. those who aren't do not. the smarter, harder working students are admitted to better colleges.

the data showing college degree salary advantages could result simply from college degree serving a as a sorting mechanism. doesn't prove that this is the case, but it is certainly a possibility, and even if this possibility does not explain 100% of variation it could explain a substantial proportion.

if there were knowledge tests and IQ tests for jobs college degree could become entirely obsolete.

You don't think students who graduate with tschnical degrees such as mechanical engineering or computer science haven't gained valuable knowledge and experience that will benefit them in the workplace? Go to any good university and take a look at the companies that come to campus to recruit graduates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh. I am from Europe and OP has a point. I don't really understand this notion that someone needs to go live in a 11x11 cinder block room with another human, eat in a cafeteria every day, and go to parties on the weekend to become an adult. Going away to college is a pretty uniquely American phenomenon...

Is that what you've reduced college to? You do realize that there are academic requirements as well and that there are many statistics that demonstrate the earning gap between college graduates and those without a college degree. I would agree that a four year college is certainly not for everybody but the advantages of a degree are indisputable.

but this hardly proves importance of college experience or even that any valuable knowledge is gained in college.

students who are smarter and harder worker have college degrees. those who aren't do not. the smarter, harder working students are admitted to better colleges.

the data showing college degree salary advantages could result simply from college degree serving a as a sorting mechanism. doesn't prove that this is the case, but it is certainly a possibility, and even if this possibility does not explain 100% of variation it could explain a substantial proportion.

if there were knowledge tests and IQ tests for jobs college degree could become entirely obsolete.

You don't think students who graduate with tschnical degrees such as mechanical engineering or computer science haven't gained valuable knowledge and experience that will benefit them in the workplace? Go to any good university and take a look at the companies that come to campus to recruit graduates.

sure! but how many students are learning technical stuff, and how important is "college experience" for them to learn it? your argument support european model of college - go to learn technical stuff. not american model of an expensive 4 year vacation with some reading thrown in.

the thing is, most people are not smart enough to benefit from college courses. i mean not from real, rigorous college courses. only maybe 10-20% of population should have a college degree. only the best colleges (those where those top 10-20% go) should exist. everything else is in fact a tremendous waste of resources.

[Anonymous]

10-20% is what it used to be in Europe had college degrees. Then they have greater value. But here in the US its a huge "buisness" so around 60% have them and they are often less value.