'Socially motived" children with ASD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is informative: It's more detailed that the DSM standard fare, and provides examples of what they consider to be abnormal socially:

https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5%28ASD.Guidelines%29Feb2013.pdf



Absence of interest in others
?
Lack of interest in peers
?
Withdrawn; aloof; in own world
?

?
Limited interest in others;
?
Unaware or oblivious to children or adults
?
Limited interaction with others
?
Prefers solitary activities

Ah yes, selective quoting. You forgot it starts with "ranging from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit different social contexts through difficulties in sharing imaginative play and in making friends to an apparent absence of interest in people" and then lists 3 or 4 dozen other things posters have been saying, with these as the examples of "absence of interest in people"

OK so, what I am trying to say is that I question the whole notion of a disorder that can include both children who are very socially motivated, and children who have an absence of interest in people. I was quoting those parts of the DSM 5 that include lack of interest in people, not arguing that the DSM 5 requires lack of interest. My whole point is to question the DSM definition.

There are lots of disorders that can include people who are socially motivated, and people who have an absence of interest in people*. For example, people in both categories can have broken arms, or high blood pressure, or language disorders, or schizophrenia.

* Note: Not demonstrating interest in people, is not the same thing as not being socially motivated, but I'm putting that aside for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is informative: It's more detailed that the DSM standard fare, and provides examples of what they consider to be abnormal socially:

https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5%28ASD.Guidelines%29Feb2013.pdf



Absence of interest in others
?
Lack of interest in peers
?
Withdrawn; aloof; in own world
?

?
Limited interest in others;
?
Unaware or oblivious to children or adults
?
Limited interaction with others
?
Prefers solitary activities

Ah yes, selective quoting. You forgot it starts with "ranging from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit different social contexts through difficulties in sharing imaginative play and in making friends to an apparent absence of interest in people" and then lists 3 or 4 dozen other things posters have been saying, with these as the examples of "absence of interest in people"

OK so, what I am trying to say is that I question the whole notion of a disorder that can include both children who are very socially motivated, and children who have an absence of interest in people. I was quoting those parts of the DSM 5 that include lack of interest in people, not arguing that the DSM 5 requires lack of interest. My whole point is to question the DSM definition.

There are lots of disorders that can include people who are socially motivated, and people who have an absence of interest in people*. For example, people in both categories can have broken arms, or high blood pressure, or language disorders, or schizophrenia.

* Note: Not demonstrating interest in people, is not the same thing as not being socially motivated, but I'm putting that aside for now.

The point is that DSM diagnosis are *not* like broken arms - they are essentially a set of symptoms, not a biologically defined condition. So when you lump seemingly disparate sets of symptoms together, as does the DSM V definition of autism, and call it a "spectrum," you do have to start to wonder about the integrity of the category. The analogy would be like there is a disorder called "the arm pain spectrum" but it included broken arms, muscle soreness, and arthritis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is informative: It's more detailed that the DSM standard fare, and provides examples of what they consider to be abnormal socially:

https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5%28ASD.Guidelines%29Feb2013.pdf



Absence of interest in others
?
Lack of interest in peers
?
Withdrawn; aloof; in own world
?

?
Limited interest in others;
?
Unaware or oblivious to children or adults
?
Limited interaction with others
?
Prefers solitary activities

Ah yes, selective quoting. You forgot it starts with "ranging from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit different social contexts through difficulties in sharing imaginative play and in making friends to an apparent absence of interest in people" and then lists 3 or 4 dozen other things posters have been saying, with these as the examples of "absence of interest in people"

OK so, what I am trying to say is that I question the whole notion of a disorder that can include both children who are very socially motivated, and children who have an absence of interest in people. I was quoting those parts of the DSM 5 that include lack of interest in people, not arguing that the DSM 5 requires lack of interest. My whole point is to question the DSM definition.

Well, that about says it all

Plenty of people have questioned the integrity of the DSM V process. Try to do some research, please. For example, NIMH wants to move entirely away from the diagnosis-based system for mental health research. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/side-effects/201305/the-nimh-withdraws-support-dsm-5

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is informative: It's more detailed that the DSM standard fare, and provides examples of what they consider to be abnormal socially:

https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5%28ASD.Guidelines%29Feb2013.pdf



Absence of interest in others
?
Lack of interest in peers
?
Withdrawn; aloof; in own world
?

?
Limited interest in others;
?
Unaware or oblivious to children or adults
?
Limited interaction with others
?
Prefers solitary activities

Ah yes, selective quoting. You forgot it starts with "ranging from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit different social contexts through difficulties in sharing imaginative play and in making friends to an apparent absence of interest in people" and then lists 3 or 4 dozen other things posters have been saying, with these as the examples of "absence of interest in people"

OK so, what I am trying to say is that I question the whole notion of a disorder that can include both children who are very socially motivated, and children who have an absence of interest in people. I was quoting those parts of the DSM 5 that include lack of interest in people, not arguing that the DSM 5 requires lack of interest. My whole point is to question the DSM definition.

Well, that about says it all

Plenty of people have questioned the integrity of the DSM V process. Try to do some research, please. For example, NIMH wants to move entirely away from the diagnosis-based system for mental health research. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/side-effects/201305/the-nimh-withdraws-support-dsm-5

So take it up with the people in charge of the DSM then instead of challenging parents of kids who got the diagnosis from their doctors.

Who are you anyway? Are you a Ph.D. Psychologist, developmental pediatrician or a neuropsychologist? Or some idiot who gets all their info from the Internet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My kid has both ASD/ADHD. He has an IEP and gets a lot of supports/services. The neuropsych eval helped to pinpoint all his issues and we are very lucky to have a very supportive school. It's been a lot of work for DS.

If it upsets you that some people get a good outcome with an ASD/ADHD diagnosis then that is your problem.

I'm skeptical that an IEP would make autism "disappear." Also, your son's ability to quell his obsession among peers also suggests a level of functioning that seems beyond Asperger's.

What upsets me, though, is your constant appearance on threads where parents are trying to figure out if their child is showing signs of autism. Your experience is not typical, and yet you present it as such.

I have a lot of respect for PP's opinion as there are a lot of people, including scientists, who believe this type of presentation is not really ASD. However, I believe the reality is that there are more and more children who get the diagnosis who are functioning at this level. They're all over place, in Neurotribes, the NYT magazine story on kids that grew out of autism and other media. (Whether this is "true" ASD is a different matter.)

Even if we don't agree on this point, I wanted to say that I think the parent of the 3rd grader with ASD/ADHD has been a really generous and helpful presence on this board and I and others have anonymously leaned on her a lot over the past year. She is often there to offer help or advice to newbies about all kinds of things from the IEP process to working with specialists when others are too busy to respond. We also personally found her story of her own child very helpful in our own situation. Even if her child does not look like your child I also find her son's case offers a lot of hope for many of us who are struggling with issues. I don't know if you remember from other threads but this parent also went through some very challenging times and just because things are better now does not mean that it wasn't a struggle to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My kid has both ASD/ADHD. He has an IEP and gets a lot of supports/services. The neuropsych eval helped to pinpoint all his issues and we are very lucky to have a very supportive school. It's been a lot of work for DS.

If it upsets you that some people get a good outcome with an ASD/ADHD diagnosis then that is your problem.

I'm skeptical that an IEP would make autism "disappear." Also, your son's ability to quell his obsession among peers also suggests a level of functioning that seems beyond Asperger's.

What upsets me, though, is your constant appearance on threads where parents are trying to figure out if their child is showing signs of autism. Your experience is not typical, and yet you present it as such.

I have a lot of respect for PP's opinion as there are a lot of people, including scientists, who believe this type of presentation is not really ASD. However, I believe the reality is that there are more and more children who get the diagnosis who are functioning at this level. They're all over place, in Neurotribes, the NYT magazine story on kids that grew out of autism and other media. (Whether this is "true" ASD is a different matter.)

Even if we don't agree on this point, I wanted to say that I think the parent of the 3rd grader with ASD/ADHD has been a really generous and helpful presence on this board and I and others have anonymously leaned on her a lot over the past year. She is often there to offer help or advice to newbies about all kinds of things from the IEP process to working with specialists when others are too busy to respond. We also personally found her story of her own child very helpful in our own situation. Even if her child does not look like your child I also find her son's case offers a lot of hope for many of us who are struggling with issues. I don't know if you remember from other threads but this parent also went through some very challenging times and just because things are better now does not mean that it wasn't a struggle to get there.

Glad to be of help! This board was very helpful to me since the very beginning when DS's teacher told me that getting an evaluation will be a good idea so I want to pay some of it back. Also, it is cheaper and more convenient than therapy when I have to vent. Yes, I am the mom of elevator boy

As for the poster(s) who keep questioning our diagnosis, we've been going back and forth on here since my kid was diagnosed with ASD/Asperger's. She does not have a kid with ASD: Her kid has MERLD and she is very committed to the idea that the only "real" autism is Kanner autism because her language delayed child was misdiagnosed as autistic at some point.

Why she keeps insisting that my kid with ASD/Asperger's without language delays cannot possibly be on the spectrum is beyond me since it does not affect her in any way other than that it goes against her belief that an ASD diagnosis means that the kid is doomed forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

I've been thinking about your question some more and I doubt he will ever lose the diagnosis.

Other than being highly socially motivated, DS's other strength is language. DS has very superior language skills even compared to NT kids which helps mitigate his social deficits. His social pragmatic deficits are barely noticible at this point bc he takes well to explicit social skills instruction and has been getting pragmatic speech therapy since he was 4.

I guess this is how a kid with ASD looks like if they have good language. DS has always had normal eye contact.

DS's ADHD caused more issues but since he has been medicated, the ADHD has pretty much become a non-issue too.

But his social deficits come from just how his brain is wired and will always be there even if it is "masked" somewhat by his superior language.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting. My Asperger kid has great expressive and receptive language. His pragmatics are ok. But the real "tell"that sets him apart (as far as speech is concerned) is in his intonation. He tends to speak very flat. We are working on this in speech therapy (through MCPS). Does this ever get better? His facial expressions are also somewhat flat or off.

He also has some emotional regulation issues but is still rather young. I heard flapping eventually goes away... so the intonation issue has really started to catch my attention. Just curious...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting. My Asperger kid has great expressive and receptive language. His pragmatics are ok. But the real "tell"that sets him apart (as far as speech is concerned) is in his intonation. He tends to speak very flat. We are working on this in speech therapy (through MCPS). Does this ever get better? His facial expressions are also somewhat flat or off.

He also has some emotional regulation issues but is still rather young. I heard flapping eventually goes away... so the intonation issue has really started to catch my attention. Just curious...

My kid's intonation is normal not flat. Facial expression normal. Did not suspect anything so having the prek teacher tell us there maybe an issue was completely unexpected. Did not have emotional regulation issues. Was a very *easy* baby.

Flapped occasionally but not much. What stood out was running around in circles and jumping up and down but this disappeared completely once he was diagnosed and treated for the ADHD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very interesting. My Asperger kid has great expressive and receptive language. His pragmatics are ok. But the real "tell"that sets him apart (as far as speech is concerned) is in his intonation. He tends to speak very flat. We are working on this in speech therapy (through MCPS). Does this ever get better? His facial expressions are also somewhat flat or off.

He also has some emotional regulation issues but is still rather young. I heard flapping eventually goes away... so the intonation issue has really started to catch my attention. Just curious...

My kid's intonation is normal not flat. Facial expression normal. Did not suspect anything so having the prek teacher tell us there maybe an issue was completely unexpected. Did not have emotional regulation issues. Was a very *easy* baby.

Flapped occasionally but not much. What stood out was running around in circles and jumping up and down but this disappeared completely once he was diagnosed and treated for the ADHD.

But my kid has been getting interventions for half his life at this point.

This yr his school tried to implement the unstuck and on target social skills curriculum but it turned out it was too basic for DS and he already knew most of it already. It starts out with reading facial expressions and so forth. So they switched to Superflex.