'Socially motived" children with ASD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Socially motivated and socially skilled are two very different things.

A child with autism can be extroverted. They can enjoy the attention of peers, have warm loving relationships with their parents, and want to please their parents. Many kids with autism, are motivated by things like clear expressions of approval from an adult, and interactions with peers.

However, the same child might have trouble putting that social motivation into action. So, he might want his mother to smile and tell him good job, but be unable to figure out which behaviors make her smile. He might want to interact with his friends, but not understand that they don't want to talk about ceiling fans for an hour. He might love his teacher and have absolutely no idea why she's annoyed with him, leading him to repeat behavior that leads to the annoyance.

People often use the idea that a child is autism is not socially motivated as an excuse for exclusion. They think that because a child isn't successful at seeking out social interactions, or might even have given up seeking out social interactions as a sign that they don't care, or that their feelings aren't hurt by exclusion. Excluding a child with an ASD on the grounds that they don't care is like holding your party in attic and then assuming your quadriplegic friend must not have wanted to be there since they didn't show up.

It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between kids who have little interest in people, and kids who just lack social skills. That does not seem like a spectrum to me.

What kids are you talking about who have little interest in people? Not having interest in people is not a symptom of ASD. Not having social skills or awareness is the core symptom of ASD.

? Read the DSM 5 definition. It definitely includes lack of interest in social interaction as part of the definition.

No it doesn't. Can you provide a quote of the language that you believe indicates a lack of interest rather than a lack of skill?

Yes, it does! "Deficits in ... social interaction ... ranging from ... reduced sharing of interests, emotions, failure to initiate or respond to social interaction ... absence of interest in peers." Also read the paper I posted above that goes into lack of social motivation in autism.

None of that states that it's a matter of motivation or interest rather than skills, other than the last part. Lack of interest in peers is very different from lack of interest in other people.

The paper you posted starts off by stating that it's going against conventional wisdom in the field. It's hardly well accepted doctrine.

no, the DSM criteria pretty clearly include a lack of interest in socializing - the paper I posted earlier discusses a lot of research along those lines (separate from their theory).

I think this is one of those check list diagnosis. You don't need meet every criterion to be diagnosed. So lack of social motivation is one indicator for ASD, but having social motivation does not mean ASD is ruled out if he has some other signs. It is like lupus, you need to meet 4 out of 11 symptoms to receive a diagnosis. Lots of diseases don't have a definitive diagnostic test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

That's too bad either you got the wrong diagnosis/advice early on or something happened that your son had to wait for treatment. If he had that good of a turn around, one has to question if it is ASD as the primary issue when you are saying it is really ADHD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

That's too bad either you got the wrong diagnosis/advice early on or something happened that your son had to wait for treatment. If he had that good of a turn around, one has to question if it is ASD as the primary issue when you are saying it is really ADHD.

DS was diagnosed with ASD at 4. Got IEP. Was doing great, no problems in prek4, k, 1st grade.

In 2nd grade, our Sp Ed department was completely overhauled. DS got a brand new Sp Ed teacher with zero experience as a SN teacher. All hell broke loose. Got behavioral issues that never appeared at any other time.

Got neuropsych and revised IEP, FBA/BIP, Sp Ed teacher duties taken over by his head English teacher (sp Ed teacher left school after the year). Treatment for ADHD.

Everything running smooth again in 3rd grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Socially motivated and socially skilled are two very different things.

A child with autism can be extroverted. They can enjoy the attention of peers, have warm loving relationships with their parents, and want to please their parents. Many kids with autism, are motivated by things like clear expressions of approval from an adult, and interactions with peers.

However, the same child might have trouble putting that social motivation into action. So, he might want his mother to smile and tell him good job, but be unable to figure out which behaviors make her smile. He might want to interact with his friends, but not understand that they don't want to talk about ceiling fans for an hour. He might love his teacher and have absolutely no idea why she's annoyed with him, leading him to repeat behavior that leads to the annoyance.

People often use the idea that a child is autism is not socially motivated as an excuse for exclusion. They think that because a child isn't successful at seeking out social interactions, or might even have given up seeking out social interactions as a sign that they don't care, or that their feelings aren't hurt by exclusion. Excluding a child with an ASD on the grounds that they don't care is like holding your party in attic and then assuming your quadriplegic friend must not have wanted to be there since they didn't show up.

Nailed it.

[Anonymous]

I think some people may be misunderstanding social motivation. My kid has social motivation in that she wants to be around her peers, involved, but she has zero understanding of how to execute that - and this extends into sharing her interests with others appropriately and recognizing that others have interests they might want to share. She could care less about someone else's interests, but is happy to regal them with hers. It's the lack of reciprocity - the give and take of social interaction. She can also engage in rather scripted conversation, but it's clear there's something missing there - like these are taught responses, not I actually care/am participating in this conversation. Look at something like the Social Response Scale, which is keyed to pick up on social impairment characteristic of ASD. She scores quite high (as in normal range) in social motivation, but no where in social awareness, cognition, etc - these are separate components, and the social impairment of ASD can come from deficits in any combo of them. The DSM (5 or the old 4 for autism) doesn't require a lack of interest in others.

[Anonymous]

I think some of the posts have just been spot-on. I feel that ASD kids can be socially motivated, extroverted, kind, sympathetic people....

BUT... because they express these emotions/communicate their feelings in a completely different way than most NT people expect, we think that they don't value social interaction. Also, I see that my child withdraws because already at age 5, he has experienced a lot of teasing, feeling awkward, rejected... and he's also very sensitive emotionally to any perceived slights from other kids... so he is IMO, defensive and hence unfriendly with others.

And, it's hard to keep all this in mind when you have to interact daily with someone with these deficits because it's easy to chalk it all up to bad behavior.

[Anonymous]

Our 5 yr old HFA DS is just like the prior two posters children - desiring of social interaction but unable to execute like a NT child. It is heart wrenching. He has no friends. I watch how his direct peers react to him - for the most part like an outlier. They call him "baby", "slowpoke", and other names on almost a daily basis at school. He has no friends. He comes home almost every day talking about how someone slighted him. It is not the other child's fault - he just cannot communicate with them effectively even though he desperately desires to do so, and he has an extremely thin skin. Anyone that does not think this is HFA/Aspergers should read Tony Attwood's book. We had one of the most well thought of neuropsychiatrists in the area confirm that he is "not a close case", but clearly HFA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think some people may be misunderstanding social motivation. My kid has social motivation in that she wants to be around her peers, involved, but she has zero understanding of how to execute that - and this extends into sharing her interests with others appropriately and recognizing that others have interests they might want to share. She could care less about someone else's interests, but is happy to regal them with hers. It's the lack of reciprocity - the give and take of social interaction. She can also engage in rather scripted conversation, but it's clear there's something missing there - like these are taught responses, not I actually care/am participating in this conversation. Look at something like the Social Response Scale, which is keyed to pick up on social impairment characteristic of ASD. She scores quite high (as in normal range) in social motivation, but no where in social awareness, cognition, etc - these are separate components, and the social impairment of ASD can come from deficits in any combo of them. The DSM (5 or the old 4 for autism) doesn't require a lack of interest in others.

This is what I consider ASD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

That's too bad either you got the wrong diagnosis/advice early on or something happened that your son had to wait for treatment. If he had that good of a turn around, one has to question if it is ASD as the primary issue when you are saying it is really ADHD.

DS was diagnosed with ASD at 4. Got IEP. Was doing great, no problems in prek4, k, 1st grade.

In 2nd grade, our Sp Ed department was completely overhauled. DS got a brand new Sp Ed teacher with zero experience as a SN teacher. All hell broke loose. Got behavioral issues that never appeared at any other time.

Got neuropsych and revised IEP, FBA/BIP, Sp Ed teacher duties taken over by his head English teacher (sp Ed teacher left school after the year). Treatment for ADHD.

Everything running smooth again in 3rd grade.

Not trying to be rude, but why wait till four to get help. Are you the poster encouraging others to wait. The earlier you start the better. I think kids should get a temporary diagnosis and services but wait till 8 for a permanent one as they can change and outgrow what ever is going on. By your description it sound like they to quickly diagnosed ASD when adhd was more fitting. Someone should have caught it much sooner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our 5 yr old HFA DS is just like the prior two posters children - desiring of social interaction but unable to execute like a NT child. It is heart wrenching. He has no friends. I watch how his direct peers react to him - for the most part like an outlier. They call him "baby", "slowpoke", and other names on almost a daily basis at school. He has no friends. He comes home almost every day talking about how someone slighted him. It is not the other child's fault - he just cannot communicate with them effectively even though he desperately desires to do so, and he has an extremely thin skin. Anyone that does not think this is HFA/Aspergers should read Tony Attwood's book. We had one of the most well thought of neuropsychiatrists in the area confirm that he is "not a close case", but clearly HFA.

It's a parenting issue if kids are acting that way or a teacher issue for not addressing it. We have one kid who is horrible to all the kids including mine and I just give the kid a look and tell him to cut it out as do several of the other parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is one view that deficits in social motivation characterizes autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3329932/

The paper was published in 2012 before the DSM-5.

SO what? That does not negate its findings. Papers like this were factored in to the DSM 5 restructuring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

That's too bad either you got the wrong diagnosis/advice early on or something happened that your son had to wait for treatment. If he had that good of a turn around, one has to question if it is ASD as the primary issue when you are saying it is really ADHD.

DS was diagnosed with ASD at 4. Got IEP. Was doing great, no problems in prek4, k, 1st grade.

In 2nd grade, our Sp Ed department was completely overhauled. DS got a brand new Sp Ed teacher with zero experience as a SN teacher. All hell broke loose. Got behavioral issues that never appeared at any other time.

Got neuropsych and revised IEP, FBA/BIP, Sp Ed teacher duties taken over by his head English teacher (sp Ed teacher left school after the year). Treatment for ADHD.

Everything running smooth again in 3rd grade.

Not trying to be rude, but why wait till four to get help. Are you the poster encouraging others to wait. The earlier you start the better. I think kids should get a temporary diagnosis and services but wait till 8 for a permanent one as they can change and outgrow what ever is going on. By your description it sound like they to quickly diagnosed ASD when adhd was more fitting. Someone should have caught it much sooner.

We waited until 4 because we did not know DS had any issues. He met all milestones on time and passed all screenings including the one for ASD at the pediatrician...

[Anonymous]

This is informative: It's more detailed that the DSM standard fare, and provides examples of what they consider to be abnormal socially:

https://depts.washington.edu/dbpeds/Screening%20Tools/DSM-5%28ASD.Guidelines%29Feb2013.pdf



Absence of interest in others
?
Lack of interest in peers
?
Withdrawn; aloof; in own world
?

?
Limited interest in others;
?
Unaware or oblivious to children or adults
?
Limited interaction with others
?
Prefers solitary activities

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think some people may be misunderstanding social motivation. My kid has social motivation in that she wants to be around her peers, involved, but she has zero understanding of how to execute that - and this extends into sharing her interests with others appropriately and recognizing that others have interests they might want to share. She could care less about someone else's interests, but is happy to regal them with hers. It's the lack of reciprocity - the give and take of social interaction. She can also engage in rather scripted conversation, but it's clear there's something missing there - like these are taught responses, not I actually care/am participating in this conversation. Look at something like the Social Response Scale, which is keyed to pick up on social impairment characteristic of ASD. She scores quite high (as in normal range) in social motivation, but no where in social awareness, cognition, etc - these are separate components, and the social impairment of ASD can come from deficits in any combo of them. The DSM (5 or the old 4 for autism) doesn't require a lack of interest in others.

This is what I consider ASD.

Me too. Pretty classic. Interesting how they are parsing the word "motivation" here. Typical social motivation comes from wanting to please and wanting to be liked. But that's not the case with autism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

That's too bad either you got the wrong diagnosis/advice early on or something happened that your son had to wait for treatment. If he had that good of a turn around, one has to question if it is ASD as the primary issue when you are saying it is really ADHD.

Exactly. This poster's child only needed an IEP and all the child's problems have gone away!

I've never run into any other parent who had it this easy. There's something very wrong with either the diagnosis, or her presentation of her child's issues.