'Socially motived" children with ASD

[Anonymous]

Re: 16:00 poster

Can you share the provider your DS has been using for the social skills program/classes and pragmatic speech therapy? Thx!

=====

I am the poster who said DS is "highly socially motivated". This was pointed out to us as a strength during ADOS/ADI-R testing at Children's when DS, 4, was diagnosed with ASD/Asperger's. Our neuropsych, Dr. Black, also pointed this out as a strength at 7 when DS was diagnosed with ADHD, combined type, and the ASD was confirmed. DS has normal eye contact.

It means that DS is social and likes to be around people. He is an extrovert and not shy but has trouble with nonverbal communication and pragmatics.

DS has had an IEP and extensive social skills training and pragmatic speech therapy since he was 4. Now at 8, DS has friends including a best friend and is the leader of his group of friends at school.

DS is fully mainstreamed at a language immersion charter and has no academic issues. His IEP is almost entirely about social communication.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Socially motivated and socially skilled are two very different things.

A child with autism can be extroverted. They can enjoy the attention of peers, have warm loving relationships with their parents, and want to please their parents. Many kids with autism, are motivated by things like clear expressions of approval from an adult, and interactions with peers.

However, the same child might have trouble putting that social motivation into action. So, he might want his mother to smile and tell him good job, but be unable to figure out which behaviors make her smile. He might want to interact with his friends, but not understand that they don't want to talk about ceiling fans for an hour. He might love his teacher and have absolutely no idea why she's annoyed with him, leading him to repeat behavior that leads to the annoyance.

People often use the idea that a child is autism is not socially motivated as an excuse for exclusion. They think that because a child isn't successful at seeking out social interactions, or might even have given up seeking out social interactions as a sign that they don't care, or that their feelings aren't hurt by exclusion. Excluding a child with an ASD on the grounds that they don't care is like holding your party in attic and then assuming your quadriplegic friend must not have wanted to be there since they didn't show up.

It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between kids who have little interest in people, and kids who just lack social skills. That does not seem like a spectrum to me.

What kids are you talking about who have little interest in people? Not having interest in people is not a symptom of ASD. Not having social skills or awareness is the core symptom of ASD.

? Read the DSM 5 definition. It definitely includes lack of interest in social interaction as part of the definition.

No it doesn't. Can you provide a quote of the language that you believe indicates a lack of interest rather than a lack of skill?

Yes, it does! "Deficits in ... social interaction ... ranging from ... reduced sharing of interests, emotions, failure to initiate or respond to social interaction ... absence of interest in peers." Also read the paper I posted above that goes into lack of social motivation in autism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To PP with the child with interests in elevators,
Doesn't the DSM require the repetitive behaviors or obsessive interests to be life interfering? Everyone to some extent has these issues and a gal who loves collecting designer shoes isn't necessarily Aspie.

It's the whole of the behaviors that decide a diagnosis like ASD. I think it is difficult for anyone reading on the internet to judge from the limited info you read. Just be assured that everyone, DS's doctors, school and the parents, agree that DS's diagnosis is correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is one view that deficits in social motivation characterizes autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3329932/

The paper was published in 2012 before the DSM-5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Socially motivated and socially skilled are two very different things.

A child with autism can be extroverted. They can enjoy the attention of peers, have warm loving relationships with their parents, and want to please their parents. Many kids with autism, are motivated by things like clear expressions of approval from an adult, and interactions with peers.

However, the same child might have trouble putting that social motivation into action. So, he might want his mother to smile and tell him good job, but be unable to figure out which behaviors make her smile. He might want to interact with his friends, but not understand that they don't want to talk about ceiling fans for an hour. He might love his teacher and have absolutely no idea why she's annoyed with him, leading him to repeat behavior that leads to the annoyance.

People often use the idea that a child is autism is not socially motivated as an excuse for exclusion. They think that because a child isn't successful at seeking out social interactions, or might even have given up seeking out social interactions as a sign that they don't care, or that their feelings aren't hurt by exclusion. Excluding a child with an ASD on the grounds that they don't care is like holding your party in attic and then assuming your quadriplegic friend must not have wanted to be there since they didn't show up.

It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between kids who have little interest in people, and kids who just lack social skills. That does not seem like a spectrum to me.

What kids are you talking about who have little interest in people? Not having interest in people is not a symptom of ASD. Not having social skills or awareness is the core symptom of ASD.

? Read the DSM 5 definition. It definitely includes lack of interest in social interaction as part of the definition.

No it doesn't. Can you provide a quote of the language that you believe indicates a lack of interest rather than a lack of skill?

Yes, it does! "Deficits in ... social interaction ... ranging from ... reduced sharing of interests, emotions, failure to initiate or respond to social interaction ... absence of interest in peers." Also read the paper I posted above that goes into lack of social motivation in autism.

None of that states that it's a matter of motivation or interest rather than skills, other than the last part. Lack of interest in peers is very different from lack of interest in other people.

The paper you posted starts off by stating that it's going against conventional wisdom in the field. It's hardly well accepted doctrine.

[Anonymous]

DS has a good friend who fits the description socially motivated but not really socially aware. An example of what this looks like in real life is in sports games he tends to be very happy to be there but he repeatedly knocks the ball out of his friends' hands or kicks the ball far away as a way of having fun or joining in. This happens even after all the kids keep telling him they don't like it. He does this every single time I've seen him play. This is a very verbal kid who is mainstreamed and he has friends he likes and other kids like him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP with the child with interests in elevators,
Doesn't the DSM require the repetitive behaviors or obsessive interests to be life interfering? Everyone to some extent has these issues and a gal who loves collecting designer shoes isn't necessarily Aspie.

It's the whole of the behaviors that decide a diagnosis like ASD. I think it is difficult for anyone reading on the internet to judge from the limited info you read. Just be assured that everyone, DS's doctors, school and the parents, agree that DS's diagnosis is correct.

Thank you for responding, PP. I'm not questioning the diagnosis, just trying to understand as our DS is sounds similar based on your description. I think I remember we were told a child had to have 2 out of three types of behaviors and they had to be pretty severe so as to impact daily life to get a diagnosis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: 16:00 poster

Can you share the provider your DS has been using for the social skills program/classes and pragmatic speech therapy? Thx!

=====

I am the poster who said DS is "highly socially motivated". This was pointed out to us as a strength during ADOS/ADI-R testing at Children's when DS, 4, was diagnosed with ASD/Asperger's. Our neuropsych, Dr. Black, also pointed this out as a strength at 7 when DS was diagnosed with ADHD, combined type, and the ASD was confirmed. DS has normal eye contact.

It means that DS is social and likes to be around people. He is an extrovert and not shy but has trouble with nonverbal communication and pragmatics.

DS has had an IEP and extensive social skills training and pragmatic speech therapy since he was 4. Now at 8, DS has friends including a best friend and is the leader of his group of friends at school.

DS is fully mainstreamed at a language immersion charter and has no academic issues. His IEP is almost entirely about social communication.

We have always received social skills classes and pragmatic speech therapy through the IEP at school. Never used private providers.

Our school has been wonderful and fully supportive of DS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP with the child with interests in elevators,
Doesn't the DSM require the repetitive behaviors or obsessive interests to be life interfering? Everyone to some extent has these issues and a gal who loves collecting designer shoes isn't necessarily Aspie.

It's the whole of the behaviors that decide a diagnosis like ASD. I think it is difficult for anyone reading on the internet to judge from the limited info you read. Just be assured that everyone, DS's doctors, school and the parents, agree that DS's diagnosis is correct.

Thank you for responding, PP. I'm not questioning the diagnosis, just trying to understand as our DS is sounds similar based on your description. I think I remember we were told a child had to have 2 out of three types of behaviors and they had to be pretty severe so as to impact daily life to get a diagnosis.

It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS has a good friend who fits the description socially motivated but not really socially aware. An example of what this looks like in real life is in sports games he tends to be very happy to be there but he repeatedly knocks the ball out of his friends' hands or kicks the ball far away as a way of having fun or joining in. This happens even after all the kids keep telling him they don't like it. He does this every single time I've seen him play. This is a very verbal kid who is mainstreamed and he has friends he likes and other kids like him.

Saying a child is very verbal is deceiving as a child could have receptive or processing issues that you are not aware of as the expressive is ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Socially motivated and socially skilled are two very different things.

A child with autism can be extroverted. They can enjoy the attention of peers, have warm loving relationships with their parents, and want to please their parents. Many kids with autism, are motivated by things like clear expressions of approval from an adult, and interactions with peers.

However, the same child might have trouble putting that social motivation into action. So, he might want his mother to smile and tell him good job, but be unable to figure out which behaviors make her smile. He might want to interact with his friends, but not understand that they don't want to talk about ceiling fans for an hour. He might love his teacher and have absolutely no idea why she's annoyed with him, leading him to repeat behavior that leads to the annoyance.

People often use the idea that a child is autism is not socially motivated as an excuse for exclusion. They think that because a child isn't successful at seeking out social interactions, or might even have given up seeking out social interactions as a sign that they don't care, or that their feelings aren't hurt by exclusion. Excluding a child with an ASD on the grounds that they don't care is like holding your party in attic and then assuming your quadriplegic friend must not have wanted to be there since they didn't show up.

It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between kids who have little interest in people, and kids who just lack social skills. That does not seem like a spectrum to me.

What kids are you talking about who have little interest in people? Not having interest in people is not a symptom of ASD. Not having social skills or awareness is the core symptom of ASD.

? Read the DSM 5 definition. It definitely includes lack of interest in social interaction as part of the definition.

No it doesn't. Can you provide a quote of the language that you believe indicates a lack of interest rather than a lack of skill?

Yes, it does! "Deficits in ... social interaction ... ranging from ... reduced sharing of interests, emotions, failure to initiate or respond to social interaction ... absence of interest in peers." Also read the paper I posted above that goes into lack of social motivation in autism.

None of that states that it's a matter of motivation or interest rather than skills, other than the last part. Lack of interest in peers is very different from lack of interest in other people.

The paper you posted starts off by stating that it's going against conventional wisdom in the field. It's hardly well accepted doctrine.

no, the DSM criteria pretty clearly include a lack of interest in socializing - the paper I posted earlier discusses a lot of research along those lines (separate from their theory).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is one view that deficits in social motivation characterizes autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3329932/

The paper was published in 2012 before the DSM-5.

I don't think you understant the DSM. It does not limit the development of research and scholarship into mental health conditions. In fact I think that NIMH wants to get past DSM altogetger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's been awhile so I don't recall exactly what we were told. I will admit that when DS's preschool teacher indicated that something was "off", I was completely taken by surprise. DS had been a very easy baby and had modeled in NYC with a major modeling agency. Worked well with photographers.

So I did not believe her until I went to observe myself. I couldn't believe my eyes: I barely recognized my kid. Was not engaging or participating at all in the classroom. Wandering around aimlessly opening drawers and stuff during free play.

So yes, I would say that DS's ASD was impacting him severely.

Is it possible he no longer fits the ASD criteria? If you got him re-evaluated today do you believe he'd get a diagnosis? BTW, it is nice to hear about a child that is doing so well. This is how interventions are supposed to work!

He had a neuropsych eval with Dr Black a yr ago. Found ADHD, combined type, in addition to the ASD. DS still qualifies for an ASD diagnosis.

But it turns out most of DS's issues stem from the ADHD not ASD. Once he was treated for the ADHD, everything improved especially the social and behavior issues. Dr Black and our psychiatrist told me this was what they had hoped once the ADHD was treated.

At this time last yr, DS was about to get funding for SN without going through due process due to behavior. Cannot believe the turn around.

Wanted to add that everyone, Dr Shapiro, Dr Black, Dr Atmore the neuropsych at Children's, etc. acknowledged that DS is *highly socially motivated* nevertheless his social motivation did NOT preclude DS from getting an Asperger's (or ASD, level 1) diagnosis.