My DD wants to avoid applying to most competitive top 25 "usual suspects" colleges - which LACs considered part of T'25?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

if the mission includes medical school admissions, then JHU is superior to Williams College both overall as well as on a "student enrollment adjusted basis", but both do well. JHU ranks at #6 for med school placement when adjusted for size, while Williams College is #14.

However, Williams College is much better than JHU for placement at elite law schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Why are you, from England? We are not talking about grad school rankings.

Both Brown and Dartmouth are far superior for undergrad. You may disagree; but applicants don’t. 80% choose Brown over Hopkins:
https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Brown+University&with=Johns+Hopkins+University
72% choose Dartmouth over Hopkins:
https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Brown+University&with=Johns+Hopkins+University
Stop digging your hole.

not to add fuel to this fire but Williams does trounce JHU in terms of x admits also..

https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Johns+Hopkins+University&with=Williams+College

Parchment is not a reliable source and is based on insufficient input to make any reasonably supportable statements.

Nevertheless, if one was admitted to both Williams College and to JHU, I do understand the appeal of attending the #1 ranked LAC over a school that just recently made it into the top 10 National University ranking. Also, these are very different school environments. Williams is in a safe community with only a modestly competitive student environment whereas the environment for pre-med majors at JHU is quite intense & competitive. But, they are still playing in different leagues.

The PP is just clueless. PP, you probably shouldn’t participate in adult conversations.

Your mommy says it's time for your diaper change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For such a goal, it might make sense to avoid the most selective colleges. As a tool, this site provides Student Selectivity Ranks for colleges and universities together:

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/college-rankings/40750

Swarthmore, for example, placed 19th nationally by selectivity.

This list is crap. It does not factor in ED; it is just admit rates. The more the class is filled ED, the lower the admit rate. Chicago is 4 on this list; its ED admit rate is estimated at 40%. Just ask us what the admit rates mean; we’ll tell you. Once again, Swat is a way tougher admit than Chicago…

Your comments are crap.

The WalletHub methodology used 30 factors, not just overall admit rates.

U Chicago is a better school than Swarthmore because of the greater number of brilliant students and the presence of graduate students & programs. However, Swarthmore & U Chicago are similar in that they both encourage intellectualism among their students. Swarthmore is tiny, and that is a weakness due to fewer perspectives and less varied input.

This is one of the stupidest and nonsensical posts that I have read in a long time. That says a lot given the idiocy of the previous posts in this thread. And, I am still on page 1. Idiots on the loose I see.

Classic LAC huckster response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

[Anonymous]

The top 10 feeder schools to medical school when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment are almost all (90%) National Universities (Amherst College is the exception among the top ten feeders to medical school at #9).

1) Stanford
2) Harvard
3) Yale
4) Columbia
5) Duke
6) Princeton
7) Johns Hopkins University
8) MIT
9) Amherst College
10) Northwestern

[Anonymous]

The Top Ten Feeders to Wall Street/Investment Banking, when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment, are:

1) Columbia
2) Yale
3) Dartmouth
4) Princeton
5) Georgetown
6) Harvard
7) U Chicago

8) Claremont McKenna (LAC)

9) Duke

10) Amherst College (LAC)

National Universities must be doing something right for undergrads based on medical school & finance/Wall Street/IB placements when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment.

LACs dominate for PhD programs--which is a bit of a precarious path from a career and financial perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top 10 feeder schools to medical school when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment are almost all (90%) National Universities (Amherst College is the exception among the top ten feeders to medical school at #9).

1) Stanford
2) Harvard
3) Yale
4) Columbia
5) Duke
6) Princeton
7) Johns Hopkins University
8) MIT
9) Amherst College
10) Northwestern

Source please? I am interested in what other schools fall in top 25.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For such a goal, it might make sense to avoid the most selective colleges. As a tool, this site provides Student Selectivity Ranks for colleges and universities together:

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/college-rankings/40750

Swarthmore, for example, placed 19th nationally by selectivity.

This list is crap. It does not factor in ED; it is just admit rates. The more the class is filled ED, the lower the admit rate. Chicago is 4 on this list; its ED admit rate is estimated at 40%. Just ask us what the admit rates mean; we’ll tell you. Once again, Swat is a way tougher admit than Chicago…

Your comments are crap.

The WalletHub methodology used 30 factors, not just overall admit rates.

U Chicago is a better school than Swarthmore because of the greater number of brilliant students and the presence of graduate students & programs. However, Swarthmore & U Chicago are similar in that they both encourage intellectualism among their students. Swarthmore is tiny, and that is a weakness due to fewer perspectives and less varied input.

The “student selectivity rank” is solely admit rates. Look it up yourself, cite next time you post, and no need for an apology: I know you are trying your best.

Please note that the WalletHub Student Selectivity Rank considers acceptance rate, standardized scoring profiles and high school class standing.

1)cite
2) any selectivity ranking not factoring ED rounds, which lower admit rates, is complete crap.

Are you being paid by wallet hub? I notice those posts usually come at a certain point of night.

Here's my theory. The WalletHub ranking is pretty arcane. The person who keeps pushing it must really like that it ranks their pet school highly (perhaps when other rankings do not). If you look at the ranking, there are some outliers. My bet would be either Hamilton College or Washington & Lee, both of which rank much higher than they typically do in other rankings. Just a hunch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top 10 feeder schools to medical school when adjusted for undergraduate enrollment are almost all (90%) National Universities (Amherst College is the exception among the top ten feeders to medical school at #9).

1) Stanford
2) Harvard
3) Yale
4) Columbia
5) Duke
6) Princeton
7) Johns Hopkins University
8) MIT
9) Amherst College
10) Northwestern

True for top 10. But half of 11-20 feeders are LACs.

11 California Institute of Technology
12 Dartmouth College
13 Haverford College
14 Williams College
15 Swarthmore College
16 Rice University
17 Pomona College
18 Brown University
19 Davidson College
20 University of Pennsylvania

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

if the mission includes medical school admissions, then JHU is superior to Williams College both overall as well as on a "student enrollment adjusted basis", but both do well. JHU ranks at #6 for med school placement when adjusted for size, while Williams College is #14.

However, Williams College is much better than JHU for placement at elite law schools.

This is the list: https://med.admit.org/school-rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

if the mission includes medical school admissions, then JHU is superior to Williams College both overall as well as on a "student enrollment adjusted basis", but both do well. JHU ranks at #6 for med school placement when adjusted for size, while Williams College is #14.

However, Williams College is much better than JHU for placement at elite law schools.

This is the list: https://med.admit.org/school-rankings

And what is this supposed to be for?

[Anonymous]

smart girl!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.