My DD wants to avoid applying to most competitive top 25 "usual suspects" colleges - which LACs considered part of T'25?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

What about top UK unis?
/:
This is the avg undergrad ranking from the top 3 UK rankings from the other thread:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE / St Andrews — 2.67
3. Durham — 4.33
4. Imperial — 6.00
5. Bath — 7.67
6. Warwick — 8.00
7. Loughborough — 10.00
8. UCL — 10.67
9. Lancaster — 13.00
10. Bristol — 13.33
11. Exeter — 14.00

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

What about top UK unis?
/:
This is the avg undergrad ranking from the top 3 UK rankings from the other thread:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE / St Andrews — 2.67
3. Durham — 4.33
4. Imperial — 6.00
5. Bath — 7.67
6. Warwick — 8.00
7. Loughborough — 10.00
8. UCL — 10.67
9. Lancaster — 13.00
10. Bristol — 13.33
11. Exeter — 14.00

I'm not as familiar with UK schools. Would you mind dividing them into North vs South schools?

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

One thing I have noticed about the WalletHub site is that the simple form in which it presents information seems to be beyond the ken of a few of the posters on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

What about top UK unis?
/:
This is the avg undergrad ranking from the top 3 UK rankings from the other thread:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE / St Andrews — 2.67
3. Durham — 4.33
4. Imperial — 6.00
5. Bath — 7.67
6. Warwick — 8.00
7. Loughborough — 10.00
8. UCL — 10.67
9. Lancaster — 13.00
10. Bristol — 13.33
11. Exeter — 14.00

I'm not as familiar with UK schools. Would you mind dividing them into North vs South schools?

Thanks!

Sure….

South:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE /
4. Imperial
5. Bath
6. Warwick
7. Loughborough (north of Birmingham)
8. UCL
10. Bristol
11. Exeter

North:

2. St Andrews
3. Durham — 4.33
9. Lancaster — 13.00

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

What about top UK unis?
/:
This is the avg undergrad ranking from the top 3 UK rankings from the other thread:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE / St Andrews — 2.67
3. Durham — 4.33
4. Imperial — 6.00
5. Bath — 7.67
6. Warwick — 8.00
7. Loughborough — 10.00
8. UCL — 10.67
9. Lancaster — 13.00
10. Bristol — 13.33
11. Exeter — 14.00

I'm not as familiar with UK schools. Would you mind dividing them into North vs South schools?

Thanks!

Sure….

South:

1. Oxford — 2.33
2. Cambridge / LSE /
4. Imperial
5. Bath
6. Warwick
7. Loughborough (north of Birmingham)
8. UCL
10. Bristol
11. Exeter

North:

2. St Andrews
3. Durham — 4.33
9. Lancaster — 13.00

Can you divide these by British accent? Some I find incredibly grating.

[Anonymous]

Is there a reason she needs a list from you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would fit in the LACs like this:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
[insert: Williams & Amherst]
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
[insert: Swarthmore]
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University
[insert Pomona and/or Bowdoin]

accurate!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

Fiction

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

I'm surprised a professor would be this biased towards r1 institutions. R1's tend to have projects for undergrads that aren't going to lead to publication; it is a complete waste of time giving an undergrad a publishable project when you can give them busy work for their CV and assign your grad students or staff to a project. I don't think the previous poster said that LACs have better research. No where did they really imply it.

There's really no proof for your final line. We don't know the future, and many REUs ran last year. Sure, some were cut, but new ones also started like the HHMI research program. Research being widely available isn't really indicative that you can get it. Many students at research institutions. Sure, if you're at Harvard, it is amazing to be an undergrad there and take part in the best research, but most people go to state universities where you do have to work a bit for it, and it may be difficult to be put on a project that will actually lead to publication. I'm an academic in physics. Research universities objectively have the best facilities and best resources, but our best applicants are often split between top universities and top liberal arts colleges. I've had students come in from Pomona, Haverford, Berkeley, MIT, Swarthmore, UCLA, Princeton, and Williams. None are more trained than the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

Fiction

+1 OP is likely a prof at DeVry University. Complete nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

I'm surprised a professor would be this biased towards r1 institutions. R1's tend to have projects for undergrads that aren't going to lead to publication; it is a complete waste of time giving an undergrad a publishable project when you can give them busy work for their CV and assign your grad students or staff to a project. I don't think the previous poster said that LACs have better research. No where did they really imply it.

There's really no proof for your final line. We don't know the future, and many REUs ran last year. Sure, some were cut, but new ones also started like the HHMI research program. Research being widely available isn't really indicative that you can get it. Many students at research institutions. Sure, if you're at Harvard, it is amazing to be an undergrad there and take part in the best research, but most people go to state universities where you do have to work a bit for it, and it may be difficult to be put on a project that will actually lead to publication. I'm an academic in physics. Research universities objectively have the best facilities and best resources, but our best applicants are often split between top universities and top liberal arts colleges. I've had students come in from Pomona, Haverford, Berkeley, MIT, Swarthmore, UCLA, Princeton, and Williams. None are more trained than the other.

lac hates on hopkins because the latter will be employed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

I'm surprised a professor would be this biased towards r1 institutions. R1's tend to have projects for undergrads that aren't going to lead to publication; it is a complete waste of time giving an undergrad a publishable project when you can give them busy work for their CV and assign your grad students or staff to a project. I don't think the previous poster said that LACs have better research. No where did they really imply it.

There's really no proof for your final line. We don't know the future, and many REUs ran last year. Sure, some were cut, but new ones also started like the HHMI research program. Research being widely available isn't really indicative that you can get it. Many students at research institutions. Sure, if you're at Harvard, it is amazing to be an undergrad there and take part in the best research, but most people go to state universities where you do have to work a bit for it, and it may be difficult to be put on a project that will actually lead to publication. I'm an academic in physics. Research universities objectively have the best facilities and best resources, but our best applicants are often split between top universities and top liberal arts colleges. I've had students come in from Pomona, Haverford, Berkeley, MIT, Swarthmore, UCLA, Princeton, and Williams. None are more trained than the other.

lac hates on hopkins because the latter will be employed

Lmao both are useless. Good luck getting a job with a Hopkins bio or ir degree. If it isn’t engineering, it’s a waste of time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

I'm surprised a professor would be this biased towards r1 institutions. R1's tend to have projects for undergrads that aren't going to lead to publication; it is a complete waste of time giving an undergrad a publishable project when you can give them busy work for their CV and assign your grad students or staff to a project. I don't think the previous poster said that LACs have better research. No where did they really imply it.

There's really no proof for your final line. We don't know the future, and many REUs ran last year. Sure, some were cut, but new ones also started like the HHMI research program. Research being widely available isn't really indicative that you can get it. Many students at research institutions. Sure, if you're at Harvard, it is amazing to be an undergrad there and take part in the best research, but most people go to state universities where you do have to work a bit for it, and it may be difficult to be put on a project that will actually lead to publication. I'm an academic in physics. Research universities objectively have the best facilities and best resources, but our best applicants are often split between top universities and top liberal arts colleges. I've had students come in from Pomona, Haverford, Berkeley, MIT, Swarthmore, UCLA, Princeton, and Williams. None are more trained than the other.

Your response is thoughtful and considerate. More than should be expected since we know that a “Professor at an R1 did not write the previous post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

I don't think that anyone would say the JHU students are brilliant, hardworking, and successful; they are. But the implication that SLACs are somehow a "lesser league that JHU is just obtuse. Focusing on research budgets, is just obtuse (undergraduates are a nuisance for researchers, they are not wanted). The outsized success of top SLACs across the board in Phd programs, IB, Consulting, Finance, top law school admissions, med school admissions, etc. relative to their size is indisputable. It is a superior model for undergraduate education.

DP. Look, I am not sure the point of this debate. I am a JHU alumni. Spouse attended an Ivy. We visited Williams and were impressed, though it would be a tough decision since kid is very research focused. But at the end of the day, my kid would be lucky to attend either JHU, any of the Ivies, or Williams. They all different schools, all with pros and cons. There is no "one superior" model, and silly to debate without considering specifics of the student, as well as career goals.

This is one thing the research university parents always fail to get- research is everywhere at top LACs and it’s for your kids, not a grad student, not a Postdoc, not a staff research assistant, not an affiliated scholar. It’s research that undergraduate students can advance a project on and get publications on. DD goes to Williams and is on her 4th publication from her lab as a senior. She also has two publications with Yale from working with a researcher during the summers. DD’s older friends all got top research fellowships and go to top graduate schools. It’s super cool that these research universities have all the fancy equipment and top researchers, but most students aren’t getting into those labs and their projects aren’t productive.

Sorry, but both my husband and I are in research and so we are not clueless about this topic. Note that you had to point out your kid did research at Yale during the summer. Publications are not all the same. Research labs do not all have the same impact in the field. Ph.D. programs are becoming increasingly competitive, and having a research-oriented mentor who is a leader in the field and who is also at the school you actually attend is very valuable. This does not mean you cannot get into a top Ph.D. program from a good LAC, but for a kid who already knows what kind of research they want to pursue, a research university has the advantage. You seem to want to claim that LAC have ALL the advantages, which seems a bit delusional. I will gladly admit that R1s lose to LAC in some respects. But anyone here claiming that one type of school is superior for all types of students is bonkers.

+1
Also a professor, "known" name R1 private: research for undergrads is widely available even in non-stem areas. Publications, which need longterm research, are not uncommon for undergrads. Top schools prioritize undergrad research, and have leaders in many fields. UCB and other top publics offer the same but with the higher ratio of undergrads to lab spots, research is typically much harder to get than at the top-research privates.
LACs do not compare at all on research. They can't. Summer R1 research (REUs )prioritize students from LACs and other primarily-undergrad institutions but with the huge funding crisis many REUs were cut, even at top schools like Yale! The situation for LAC students got a lot worse summer of 2025 and will not rebound any time soon.

I'm surprised a professor would be this biased towards r1 institutions. R1's tend to have projects for undergrads that aren't going to lead to publication; it is a complete waste of time giving an undergrad a publishable project when you can give them busy work for their CV and assign your grad students or staff to a project. I don't think the previous poster said that LACs have better research. No where did they really imply it.

There's really no proof for your final line. We don't know the future, and many REUs ran last year. Sure, some were cut, but new ones also started like the HHMI research program. Research being widely available isn't really indicative that you can get it. Many students at research institutions. Sure, if you're at Harvard, it is amazing to be an undergrad there and take part in the best research, but most people go to state universities where you do have to work a bit for it, and it may be difficult to be put on a project that will actually lead to publication. I'm an academic in physics. Research universities objectively have the best facilities and best resources, but our best applicants are often split between top universities and top liberal arts colleges. I've had students come in from Pomona, Haverford, Berkeley, MIT, Swarthmore, UCLA, Princeton, and Williams. None are more trained than the other.

lac hates on hopkins because the latter will be employed

Lmao both are useless. Good luck getting a job with a Hopkins bio or ir degree. If it isn’t engineering, it’s a waste of time

What an ignorant, incorrect post.

JHU has amazing success at placing students in medical school for example of success for those with a degree in biology from JHU.

Try getting a decent job from any college or university with just an undergraduate degree in biology.

The LAC boosters who are deriding JHU & U Chicago are clueless.