My DD wants to avoid applying to most competitive top 25 "usual suspects" colleges - which LACs considered part of T'25?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait -- the military academies aren't LACs, are they?

They are their own kind of animal, but they fit in better with LACs for the purpose of rankings because they focus on undergraduate education.

So do many nat’l unis. The military academies fit in with national univ rankings because they also have double the students of a SLAC.

Well, USNWR put them where they put them. I'd imagine that students who are interested in them don't find the rankings particularly useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait -- the military academies aren't LACs, are they?

They are their own kind of animal, but they fit in better with LACs for the purpose of rankings because they focus on undergraduate education.

So do many nat’l unis. The military academies fit in with national univ rankings because they also have double the students of a SLAC.

Well, USNWR put them where they put them. I'd imagine that students who are interested in them don't find the rankings particularly useful.

I think that’s the point: the rankings have jumped the shark and are not particularly useful. SLACs in a separate list have the impact of marginalization; the unwary consumer is left thinking that the top SLACs are easier admits than they are — and will end up in the rejection pile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We may not hear back from the Swarthmore undergrad/JHU grad school poster. Granted Swarthmore for undergrad would be a safer, more intimate experience than JHU.

OP: Here is a combined ranking of National Universities & LACs based just on undergraduate factors. This is the last time that the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published such a ranking:

https://timeshighereducation.com/rankings/united-states/2022#!/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/scores

The highest ranked LAC is Amherst College at #22 followed by Williams College at #23.

Naval Academy #75 + UC Davis #40 = crap
Pomona #25 + NYU #26 = LOL
IYKYK

[Anonymous]

DS transferred out of Berkeley (Haas) to a SLAC. The difference in the quality of undergrad teaching and the student experience is vast. National universities may be great for grad school but they leave a lot to be desired for undergrad. Those research dollars go to grad students, not lowly undergrads. Class sizes, particularly for the first two years, are huge, and taught almost exclusively by TAs. Don’t get me started on club culture. In my experience, SLACs are mid-size schools are the only way to go. Save the big schools for graduate studies.

[Anonymous]

I'm a tenured professor at an R1, who attended a PAWS college, then completed a PhD at HYP in the social sciences. It is absurd to compare SLACs to "National Universities" (a UWNWR silly category) based upon percentage of applicants admitted.
No one on this thread seems to factor in that the seniors who apply to top SLACs are already a highly filtered group, for better or for worse. Chances are that applicants already come from a well-educated family and/or attend a high school with superior college counseling. Everyone has heard of HYP; you don't need a selective graduate degree to know that these schools have reputations. This is a major reason why H, in particular, has such low admit rates; everyone applies to H, even when it's a crap shoot.
OP, your child needs to figure out what environment she'll need to thrive. It can be small or large, urban or rural, Greek or not, etc., etc. I truly do not think that your child understands what "competitiveness" actually entails. So much of her happiness in college will be in finding a supportive friend group, and she can find this, or not, wherever she ends up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

Think of WASP-B as equivalent to top 10-15 (but higher than Chicago and Johns Hopkins, which are not the same caliber as the other top 10.

There is no such thing as WASP-B but SWAMP actually was a term (you can google it) if one wants to play that game. The top 20 SLACs are as strong for undergraduate education as any of the T20 universities (don’t out yourself by saying Unis).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For such a goal, it might make sense to avoid the most selective colleges. As a tool, this site provides Student Selectivity Ranks for colleges and universities together:

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/college-rankings/40750

Swarthmore, for example, placed 19th nationally by selectivity.

This list is crap. It does not factor in ED; it is just admit rates. The more the class is filled ED, the lower the admit rate. Chicago is 4 on this list; its ED admit rate is estimated at 40%. Just ask us what the admit rates mean; we’ll tell you. Once again, Swat is a way tougher admit than Chicago…

Your comments are crap.

The WalletHub methodology used 30 factors, not just overall admit rates.

U Chicago is a better school than Swarthmore because of the greater number of brilliant students and the presence of graduate students & programs. However, Swarthmore & U Chicago are similar in that they both encourage intellectualism among their students. Swarthmore is tiny, and that is a weakness due to fewer perspectives and less varied input.

This is one of the stupidest and nonsensical posts that I have read in a long time. That says a lot given the idiocy of the previous posts in this thread. And, I am still on page 1. Idiots on the loose I see.

[Anonymous]

DC had stats for top schools but didn't want that culture. DC went down the list of LACs until DC found one that felt like the right combo of rigorous academics in a supportive atmosphere. It's a Top 15 LAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This ranking of LACs and their methodology is interesting:

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/best-colleges-in-the-us-ranking/40748

WalletHub rankings are completely broken for LACs….no Williams, no Middlebury, no credibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

They have two different functions. And, Williams is far superior at it’s mission which is undergraduate education.

Maybe, maybe not. What is Williams College's mission ? JHU undergraduates are hard-working and successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD has good stats (1500+ SAT, A/A- grades, top rigor) but doesn't want to compete for what she calls top 20-25. Is this the list to avoid? Where do LACs fit in?

Top 25 National Unis:

1 Princeton University
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
3 Harvard University
4 Stanford University
4 Yale University
6 University of Chicago
7 Duke University
7 Johns Hopkins University
7 Northwestern University
7 University of Pennsylvania
11 California Institute of Technology
12 Cornell University
13 Brown University
13 Dartmouth College
15 Columbia University
15 University of California, Berkeley
17 Rice University
17 University of California, Los Angeles
17 Vanderbilt University
20 Carnegie Mellon University
20 University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
20 University of Notre Dame
20 Washington University in St. Louis
24 Emory University
24 Georgetown University

Top LACs:

1 Williams
2 Amherst
3 US Naval Academy
4 Swarthmore
5 US Air Force Academy
5 Bowdoin

Think of WASP-B as equivalent to top 10-15 (but higher than Chicago and Johns Hopkins, which are not the same caliber as the other top 10.

The above sentence is incorrect.

U Chicago & Johns Hopkins University are superior to Williams, Amherst, Pomona, & Bowdoin. Swarthmore has similarities to U Chicago.

If your daughter does not want a competitive school environment, that differs somewhat from competitive admissions.

If your daughter does not want to engage in competitive admissions, then just eliminated schools which accept 20% or fewer applicants.

If your daughter doesn't want a competitive academic environment, then avoid the Top 25 National Universities. LACs are in a different, less competitive league (although she might want to avoid Swarthmore & Harvey Mudd LACs).

So which is it ? Does your daughter want to avoid competitive admissions or competitive academic schools ?

Agree with most of the above, but will add that whether a Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore is preferable to a U Chicago or JHU depends on the student's priorities and goals. If the goal is to work in a high impact lab as an undergrad, obviously UChicago or JHU, or heck even a good state flagship like UMD would be better. If the goal is good quality teaching in courses all around, combined with high levels of student support and advisement, then go for an LAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Why are you, from England? We are not talking about grad school rankings.

Both Brown and Dartmouth are far superior for undergrad. You may disagree; but applicants don’t. 80% choose Brown over Hopkins:
https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Brown+University&with=Johns+Hopkins+University
72% choose Dartmouth over Hopkins:
https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Brown+University&with=Johns+Hopkins+University
Stop digging your hole.

not to add fuel to this fire but Williams does trounce JHU in terms of x admits also..

https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Johns+Hopkins+University&with=Williams+College

Parchment is not a reliable source and is based on insufficient input to make any reasonably supportable statements.

Nevertheless, if one was admitted to both Williams College and to JHU, I do understand the appeal of attending the #1 ranked LAC over a school that just recently made it into the top 10 National University ranking. Also, these are very different school environments. Williams is in a safe community with only a modestly competitive student environment whereas the environment for pre-med majors at JHU is quite intense & competitive. But, they are still playing in different leagues.

The PP is just clueless. PP, you probably shouldn’t participate in adult conversations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very odd that some LAC supporters criticize Johns Hopkins University. JHU has, by far, the largest research & development (R&D) budget of any US school and probably of any school in the world. There is no LAC that is even close to JHU or to any Top 15 university excluding Dartmouth College & Brown University--an other of which are over-rated.

If LACs were ranked with National Universities, none--according to the Wall Street Journal & The Times Higher Education published rankings, would fall among the top 20 schools.

Williams would 1000% - and probably higher than JHU, which some would say is a one trick pony

Now you're just be silly & childish. Compare the research budget of JHU to any other school in the world. JHU's 2023 fiscal year research budget was over $3.8 billion ($3,800,000,000+). Over $3.8 billion for just one year. Williams College's R&D budget for the same fiscal year (2023) was a paltry $3.448 million (less than one-tenth of one percent of JHU's 2023 R&D budget!)

JHU's $3,800,000,000+ budget versus Williams College's $3,448,000 R&D budget. They are in two different leagues.

Endowment per student:
Johns Hopkins, 366k
https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/EndowmentPerStudent/State/MD/
Williams, 1.4 million
https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/EndowmentPerStudent/State/MD/

Any questions?

Yes, Williams College has a very impressive, substantial EPS (endowment per student), but that is meaningless beyond an indication of financial stability. Williams College's EPS is not spent on students--both sits in investments for Williams College's benefit.

JHU is spending over $3.8 billion dollars per year on R&D which benefits both students (undergraduate & graduate), professors, industry, government, and the real world. Think of it as working capital versus a savings account. Williams College's saving account does little to nothing to benefit it's students. Princeton University has such a massive endowment per student (EPS) that it does spend a meaningful amount to benefit each individual student each year.

I am not anti-LAC, but comparing an LAC to a top 25 or top 30 National University is ridiculous; it's like comparing an NFL football team to a great college football team. Different leagues. And, if you don't understand that, then you really should refrain from making declarative statements about this topic.

And you just confirmed my previous comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For such a goal, it might make sense to avoid the most selective colleges. As a tool, this site provides Student Selectivity Ranks for colleges and universities together:

https://wallethub.com/edu/e/college-rankings/40750

Swarthmore, for example, placed 19th nationally by selectivity.

This list is crap. It does not factor in ED; it is just admit rates. The more the class is filled ED, the lower the admit rate. Chicago is 4 on this list; its ED admit rate is estimated at 40%. Just ask us what the admit rates mean; we’ll tell you. Once again, Swat is a way tougher admit than Chicago…

Your comments are crap.

The WalletHub methodology used 30 factors, not just overall admit rates.

U Chicago is a better school than Swarthmore because of the greater number of brilliant students and the presence of graduate students & programs. However, Swarthmore & U Chicago are similar in that they both encourage intellectualism among their students. Swarthmore is tiny, and that is a weakness due to fewer perspectives and less varied input.

The “student selectivity rank” is solely admit rates. Look it up yourself, cite next time you post, and no need for an apology: I know you are trying your best.

Please note that the WalletHub Student Selectivity Rank considers acceptance rate, standardized scoring profiles and high school class standing.

Pointing to a WalletHub ranking is just highlighting one’s cluelessness.