Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

NO. Absolutely no one is suggesting gender checks! Why would you even suggest that?

If the rule is that kids swim with the sex they were assigned at birth, then you just do that. If there is distrust, you can have parents produce birth certificates, but all of this would happen during registration, not at meets and not in front of the kids.

If the rules are clear and there is buy in and trust within the community, then if some dad at a meet is like "hey that kid winning all the girls races is tall and has short hair -- is that a boy??" everyone can rightly tell that dad to shut up and mind his own business because there are clear rules and everyone follows them and there is no reason to raise questions of sex at all.

So again how do YOU know this unnamed kid wasn't registered that way? You're taking the word of a guy who was kicked out for abusive language, who gave an interview to a right wing rag website.

Cis girls have had mobs go after them for having short hair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

[Anonymous]

It should be based on birth because genetics are the issue here. And yes, little boys do swim faster than little girls. I can easily tell that by looking at our swim sheets.

I do think people need to stick up for females. Once we finally had our own sports and space, men come right back trying to take it away. You never see female to male trans swimmers wanting to swim in the boy heats. Why is it only okay for them to swim in the girl heats? Or compete on girl teams?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys under 10 are not physically stronger than girls the same age (if anything, they tend to be smaller). Even if you have a problem with transgender athletes in teen and adult sports, this was still a non-issue for fairness.

My daughter used to swim with the boys at practice meets for fun and beat all of them until she was almost 12. Agree, this is a non-issue. And also this father could have handled this much differently. Unfortunately, with our current administration people feel emboldened to act this way AND forget this is a child we are talking about.

And some girls still swim faster than boys at 12. That does not prove that 12 year old boys are slower than 12 year old girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

True intersex is actually very rare and I suspect where this is landing eventually is cheek swabs. World Athletics is already going that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

NO. Absolutely no one is suggesting gender checks! Why would you even suggest that?

If the rule is that kids swim with the sex they were assigned at birth, then you just do that. If there is distrust, you can have parents produce birth certificates, but all of this would happen during registration, not at meets and not in front of the kids.

If the rules are clear and there is buy in and trust within the community, then if some dad at a meet is like "hey that kid winning all the girls races is tall and has short hair -- is that a boy??" everyone can rightly tell that dad to shut up and mind his own business because there are clear rules and everyone follows them and there is no reason to raise questions of sex at all.

So again how do YOU know this unnamed kid wasn't registered that way? You're taking the word of a guy who was kicked out for abusive language, who gave an interview to a right wing rag website.

Cis girls have had mobs go after them for having short hair.

I don't know, that's the whole problem. NVSL has no firm rules on this and teams can decide individually how to categorize trans swimmers. This is a problem because not everyone is okay having trans girls swim in the girls group. Everyone knows this. Create a clear rule everyone can live with and enforce it. Then you get trust in the system and people don't make a fuss because they believe the system is fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It should be based on birth because genetics are the issue here. And yes, little boys do swim faster than little girls. I can easily tell that by looking at our swim sheets.

I do think people need to stick up for females. Once we finally had our own sports and space, men come right back trying to take it away. You never see female to male trans swimmers wanting to swim in the boy heats. Why is it only okay for them to swim in the girl heats? Or compete on girl teams?

I agree, PP, and especially with the bolded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

NO. Absolutely no one is suggesting gender checks! Why would you even suggest that?

If the rule is that kids swim with the sex they were assigned at birth, then you just do that. If there is distrust, you can have parents produce birth certificates, but all of this would happen during registration, not at meets and not in front of the kids.

If the rules are clear and there is buy in and trust within the community, then if some dad at a meet is like "hey that kid winning all the girls races is tall and has short hair -- is that a boy??" everyone can rightly tell that dad to shut up and mind his own business because there are clear rules and everyone follows them and there is no reason to raise questions of sex at all.

Because it’s the favorite strawman of those who pretend to believe that it’s impossible to tell males from females without checking genitals or chromosomes. They also pretend to believe that a simple cheek swab wouldn’t solve the problem at elite level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should not be deputizing random men to police the gender of children.

Yes, actually, we should be.

Parents have got to start standing up in situations like this. I admire him for his courage.

You're okay with a random adult man demanding your child prove she's a girl? Please tell me how you think this is going to play out.

But it wasn't a girl now, was it?

And again you know this how? A prepubescent boy and girl are not distinguishable when clothed.

Because let's be clear, you're saying it should be okay for an adult man to demand gender checks of a child. Meaning what, a kid has to show their private parts to an adult stranger.

Because hell no.

They were in bathing suits. It's distinguishable. Don't make me draw a picture for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

No, we can't "agree that Fernandez acted inappropriately."

Numerous people were filming the incident. Where are the videos all over social media of him acting inappropriately?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

So your solution to a casual child's swim meet is to rewrite the entire legal system and make parents carry around birth certificates all the time, do I have that right?

And in the moment for this kid, with this parent in this situation... what exactly? Because if a birth certificate wasn't going to fix this situation that just happened, what exactly would have satisfied this parent?

Tell me you don't have kids in sports without telling me.

No one "carries around birth certificates," friend. There is a thing called portals for sports teams where they are submitted at the beginning of the season. Problem solved.

[Anonymous]

From the reports, even his own, he acted inappropriately. That being said suspending his pool membership is a dramatic overreaction.

[Anonymous]

Really gross that they were not in the correct grouping and a parent had to stand up. Should’ve never happened.