Hope for DCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When people say “safe neighborhood” the ey mean a neighborhood that doesn’t have any black people in it.

This is what racists mean. But there actually are people who mean a neighborhood with low crime and in particular where kids can play and go to one another's homes and to the local park and playground without being in danger. For instance Shepherd Park is a majority black neighborhood that most people I know would consider safe in this way. But Dupont Circle is a majority white neighborhood that while generally viewed as safe is not the sort of place where I'd let my elementary school kid wander around on her own.

In DC sometimes majority black and "unsafe" get conflated in part because generally high poverty rates are associated with higher crime and DC's history of segregation means that most of the poverty in the city is concentrated in the black community. But there are a number of middle class black neighborhoods in DC that are safer than some of the wealthy white neighborhoods and these neighborhoods often have better schools as well.

Nuance actually matters a lot in the this conversation.

Shepherd Park used to be predominately black but now it’s almost 85% white.

Not even close -- City Data says the neighborhood is still over 60% black and only a little over 20% white. The elementary school has had an increasing white population but it's still only 28% and the school is still majority black (though only just barely -- reflecting the fact that many of the younger families moving to the neighborhood are not black while most of the older residents in the neighborhood are black).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the demographics of the city are 40% black and 40% white, then the public schools should reflect that. And they often don't.

Sure but that's oversimplifying the issue. Anacostia and other EOTR neighborhoods are not 40% white, and AU Park is not 40% black. Unless you plan to bus kids all over the city, the neighborhood schools are not going to reflect the city average.

Also, school-age demographics look different than total population demographics. Edscape report shows race/ethnicity breakdown for children in DC in 2022 was 52% black, 24% white, 18% hispanic/latino, whereas the adult population was 41%, 41%, 10%. https://edscape.dc.gov/node/1385386

Would be interesting to see which schools look most like their neighborhood demographics and which the least. My spatial data skills aren't good enough for this, but I think you could come up with a fairly solid answer using existing school demographic and census data.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If we had consistently good schools that were well regarded, fewer young people would feel the need to move elsewhere before having kids.

It's not just schools. People want to raise their kids in a house with a yard and a safe kid friendly neighborhood. You need to be very rich to get that in DC

Houses in my neighborhood are selling for $650K. It doesn't get much lower in the close in suburbs. And we have yards. As do many (possibly most?) single family homes / duplexes / row houses in DC.

Now cross out duplexes and row houses and remember the safe part. What neighborhoods in DC quailfy

My neighborhood is safe, dude. Don't live here if you don't want to, but to say that few homes in DC are in safe neighborhoods with yards is just false. And if you don't know that you're ignorant and should educate yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

I agree you have to accept this. And while this is not your problem to solve, it is a challenge for white families in DC. Especially middle class white families for whom private school or living in one of the very few neighborhoods in DC with majority white schools. We don't need to be at a majority white school but we don't want our kids to be the ONLY white kids in a school. This means we want "diverse" schools (not 80% or more one race) but that's viewed negatively by a lot of black families. So it often feels like there is essentially nowhere else for us to go.

I dislike charters generally but the deeper we get into elementary in DCPS the more I see the appeal of them if you actually view diversity at a school as a positive. Because the black families who choose charters are generally less hostile to diversity which means they are a place where white and Asian kids can go and their families don't feel either like an invading force or like they've just copped out on attending school with non-white kids. It's artificial diversity (charter families might be racially diverse but they are often not very diverse in other ways) but at least it's a place where white kids can feel welcome without having to find a majority white school.

My kid is at a 15% white MS and I have literally never sensed any hostility. People sure do a LOT of projecting about this stuff. If anything the majority teachers & kids seem to fine him amusing and different. I only felt hostility from one admin and that one was just a jerk who I think thought could get away with it at that school under the guise of “tough love.” But that one was literally the only one. All of the other teachers and admins were supportive.

I am glad that this was your experience but it's not universal -- you have black parents *in this thread* explaining why they prefer majority black schools and view an influx of white families with suspicion. So the idea that white kids are universally welcomed at predominantly black schools is just false -- it can depend on the school but there are good reasons why some black families look at an influx of white kids as a negative even if they hold no particular animus against the individual white kids.

I think it can depend on the kid too. Some kids have a harder time fitting in and finding their friend group no matter what the demographics of a school are and for these kids it may be harder to be the lone white kid in a class. Kids in elementary tend to be particularly aware of differences and more likely to point it out or tease each other because of different skn or hair. You see this even in schools with no racial diversity but when you have most kids of one race and a few of another this creates an easy division among kids. Some kids easily overcome that division and others may struggle. If you add in other things that might make a kid stand out (an LD or other SN for instance) and this can make for a tough elementary experience.

[Anonymous]

Thing is, DCPS doesn't want high-achieving kids (white or otherwise). During the Fenty/Rhee years, there was a major push to retain educated, middle-income families in DC and DCPS schools were pushed to show how they would support high-achieving students. That ended and the message has been, if you don't like what we offer, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I need hardly point out that parts of Brooklyn offer many inducements for families to stay that DC just doesn't have.

I'm still here in DC, and my kid went through DCPS from K-12, but that ended several years ago. The boundaries, programs, and funding levels at the better schools, etc. have all changed for the worst since she finished. I don't think that today, a middle income kid living in our central city neighborhood could have the kind of pretty good DCPS experience that my kid had from 2005-2018.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

I am a white parent with a non-white child at a majority black Title 1 school. I have never felt like the villain or not welcome at the school. To be fair I am also a teacher so I am not nearly as involved as many other parents at the school. What I have noticed is the white parents tend to just be more demanding. They constantly ask the AP and principal for things I would never ask for because they seem to overstep.

What are they asking for?

I don’t want to be too specific but a lot around which teacher their kid should have, which kids should be in the class, etc.

Might as well ask, unless the principal has clearly stated requests will be ignored.

It's another symptom of the unevenness of both the teachers and the students.

Please trust me these requests are not based on the ‘stronger teachers’ or ‘behavior of students’. These requests are rooted in privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

I am a white parent with a non-white child at a majority black Title 1 school. I have never felt like the villain or not welcome at the school. To be fair I am also a teacher so I am not nearly as involved as many other parents at the school. What I have noticed is the white parents tend to just be more demanding. They constantly ask the AP and principal for things I would never ask for because they seem to overstep.

What are they asking for?

I don’t want to be too specific but a lot around which teacher their kid should have, which kids should be in the class, etc.

Might as well ask, unless the principal has clearly stated requests will be ignored.

It's another symptom of the unevenness of both the teachers and the students.

Please trust me these requests are not based on the ‘stronger teachers’ or ‘behavior of students’. These requests are rooted in privilege.

I'm not PP, but I don't trust people who claim that "privilege" is responsible for everything they don't like. Your attitude is part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

I agree you have to accept this. And while this is not your problem to solve, it is a challenge for white families in DC. Especially middle class white families for whom private school or living in one of the very few neighborhoods in DC with majority white schools. We don't need to be at a majority white school but we don't want our kids to be the ONLY white kids in a school. This means we want "diverse" schools (not 80% or more one race) but that's viewed negatively by a lot of black families. So it often feels like there is essentially nowhere else for us to go.

I dislike charters generally but the deeper we get into elementary in DCPS the more I see the appeal of them if you actually view diversity at a school as a positive. Because the black families who choose charters are generally less hostile to diversity which means they are a place where white and Asian kids can go and their families don't feel either like an invading force or like they've just copped out on attending school with non-white kids. It's artificial diversity (charter families might be racially diverse but they are often not very diverse in other ways) but at least it's a place where white kids can feel welcome without having to find a majority white school.

My kid is at a 15% white MS and I have literally never sensed any hostility. People sure do a LOT of projecting about this stuff. If anything the majority teachers & kids seem to fine him amusing and different. I only felt hostility from one admin and that one was just a jerk who I think thought could get away with it at that school under the guise of “tough love.” But that one was literally the only one. All of the other teachers and admins were supportive.

I am glad that this was your experience but it's not universal -- you have black parents *in this thread* explaining why they prefer majority black schools and view an influx of white families with suspicion. So the idea that white kids are universally welcomed at predominantly black schools is just false -- it can depend on the school but there are good reasons why some black families look at an influx of white kids as a negative even if they hold no particular animus against the individual white kids.

I think it can depend on the kid too. Some kids have a harder time fitting in and finding their friend group no matter what the demographics of a school are and for these kids it may be harder to be the lone white kid in a class. Kids in elementary tend to be particularly aware of differences and more likely to point it out or tease each other because of different skn or hair. You see this even in schools with no racial diversity but when you have most kids of one race and a few of another this creates an easy division among kids. Some kids easily overcome that division and others may struggle. If you add in other things that might make a kid stand out (an LD or other SN for instance) and this can make for a tough elementary experience.

Yup, glad the person with the kid in an 85% Black MS had a great experience, but animosity from SOME black families at majority-Black schools (ours is 89% Black) is unfortunately a thing. My white DD has been excluded from playing and told it’s because she’s white, and we’ve had to have lessons about what it meant when so and so called her a colonizer. These kids are 1st and 2nd grades, they don’t come up with this on their own - it’s the parents using those terms and saying how they really feel at home.

The reverse is far more common of course, maybe not in liberal DC but Black kids at my 95% white suburban school growing up in a state far from here had the same or worse experience. Luckily what DD experienced is not from the majority at our school, far from it. And we will be fine either way. But to pretend there isn’t any animosity when white families start showing up and changing the vibe at previously all Black schools is blind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

I am a white parent with a non-white child at a majority black Title 1 school. I have never felt like the villain or not welcome at the school. To be fair I am also a teacher so I am not nearly as involved as many other parents at the school. What I have noticed is the white parents tend to just be more demanding. They constantly ask the AP and principal for things I would never ask for because they seem to overstep.

What are they asking for?

I don’t want to be too specific but a lot around which teacher their kid should have, which kids should be in the class, etc.

Might as well ask, unless the principal has clearly stated requests will be ignored.

It's another symptom of the unevenness of both the teachers and the students.

Please trust me these requests are not based on the ‘stronger teachers’ or ‘behavior of students’. These requests are rooted in privilege.

I'm not PP, but I don't trust people who claim that "privilege" is responsible for everything they don't like. Your attitude is part of the problem.

I’m part of the problem by trusting the administration and teachers of my child’s school to decide which kids should be in which class instead of a parent trying to engineer there kid’s class? If that is my attitude I won’t be changing it.

[Anonymous]

I am a white parent at a predominantly black school and have never and would never ask for a specific teacher or for special treatment for my kid

But I see an issue in the assumption that if a white parent asks for something from administration it's "entitlement" but when a black parent asks for it it's "advocacy"

One thing I struggle with as a white parent is that there are times when I do feel I need to advocate for my child and I have to be wary of being perceived as entitled -- it can be hard to navigate that line including around SNs

I don't know what the solution to this is and there probably isn't a solution that both ensures the kids get the right accommodations but also never rubs anyone the wrong way or comes off as entitled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

I agree you have to accept this. And while this is not your problem to solve, it is a challenge for white families in DC. Especially middle class white families for whom private school or living in one of the very few neighborhoods in DC with majority white schools. We don't need to be at a majority white school but we don't want our kids to be the ONLY white kids in a school. This means we want "diverse" schools (not 80% or more one race) but that's viewed negatively by a lot of black families. So it often feels like there is essentially nowhere else for us to go.

I dislike charters generally but the deeper we get into elementary in DCPS the more I see the appeal of them if you actually view diversity at a school as a positive. Because the black families who choose charters are generally less hostile to diversity which means they are a place where white and Asian kids can go and their families don't feel either like an invading force or like they've just copped out on attending school with non-white kids. It's artificial diversity (charter families might be racially diverse but they are often not very diverse in other ways) but at least it's a place where white kids can feel welcome without having to find a majority white school.

My kid is at a 15% white MS and I have literally never sensed any hostility. People sure do a LOT of projecting about this stuff. If anything the majority teachers & kids seem to fine him amusing and different. I only felt hostility from one admin and that one was just a jerk who I think thought could get away with it at that school under the guise of “tough love.” But that one was literally the only one. All of the other teachers and admins were supportive.

I am glad that this was your experience but it's not universal -- you have black parents *in this thread* explaining why they prefer majority black schools and view an influx of white families with suspicion. So the idea that white kids are universally welcomed at predominantly black schools is just false -- it can depend on the school but there are good reasons why some black families look at an influx of white kids as a negative even if they hold no particular animus against the individual white kids.

I think it can depend on the kid too. Some kids have a harder time fitting in and finding their friend group no matter what the demographics of a school are and for these kids it may be harder to be the lone white kid in a class. Kids in elementary tend to be particularly aware of differences and more likely to point it out or tease each other because of different skn or hair. You see this even in schools with no racial diversity but when you have most kids of one race and a few of another this creates an easy division among kids. Some kids easily overcome that division and others may struggle. If you add in other things that might make a kid stand out (an LD or other SN for instance) and this can make for a tough elementary experience.

I thought we were talking about middle school. Unless you’re talking about something that specifically happened at your child’s school, the input isn’t super helpful and tends to be based on projections, generalizations and fears. Eg my SN kids is doing great at his T1 school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thing is, DCPS doesn't want high-achieving kids (white or otherwise). During the Fenty/Rhee years, there was a major push to retain educated, middle-income families in DC and DCPS schools were pushed to show how they would support high-achieving students. That ended and the message has been, if you don't like what we offer, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I need hardly point out that parts of Brooklyn offer many inducements for families to stay that DC just doesn't have.

I'm still here in DC, and my kid went through DCPS from K-12, but that ended several years ago. The boundaries, programs, and funding levels at the better schools, etc. have all changed for the worst since she finished. I don't think that today, a middle income kid living in our central city neighborhood could have the kind of pretty good DCPS experience that my kid had from 2005-2018.

We’re middle income going on 7 years in DCPS and doing fine. The trend away from chasing “rigor” is part of the reality of school districts everywhere; not just DC. OTOH DC has some really promising developments since your child went to Ms and HS - increasing buy-in to many neighborhood MS; expanded charter options; increased interest across wards in application schools Banneker and McKinleu; and last but not least, an entire new HS (MacArthur). What’s really changed or not stopped changing since 2005 is that (assuming you lived IB for JR?) housing is unaffordable in the “good” zones for even the UMC. So you see UMV people finding many other options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

This probably seems naive, but why? Is it a shared culture thing? A resource allocation thing? Something else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

This probably seems naive, but why? Is it a shared culture thing? A resource allocation thing? Something else?

This seems weird to me too. I mean black folks are roughly 12 percent of the US population. Why fixate on this and be so exclusionary to the rest of the community?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is about the quality of education at the predominantly-Black middle schools, full stop. There are thousands of white families in DC that live EOTP and would love to have a safe, challenging middle school to send their kids to. It just doesn't exist. Hell, even tons of Black and Brown families are opting out of DC's public middle schools.

Some of the schools EOTP are so bad is it *mind-blowing*. Like, it's hard to imagine how a school, in any possible universe, could be any worse. Start there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

This probably seems naive, but why? Is it a shared culture thing? A resource allocation thing? Something else?

This seems weird to me too. I mean black folks are roughly 12 percent of the US population. Why fixate on this and be so exclusionary to the rest of the community?

Black people actually make a little more than 14% of the US population. It’s probably higher if you include the number of blacks that identify as Hispanic.