Hope for DCPS?

[Anonymous]

To engage with the article posted, I assume the "hope for DCPS" references DOE's stated initiative to desegregate schools, including by exploring "clustering" nearby schools with differing demographics. The only school pair DOE identified for this effort was Maury/Miner elementary schools. Notably, these are elementary schools, while this article is about an effort to diversify certain Brooklyn middle schools. Interestingly, the report this article is about notes that area elementary schools remain highly segregated (reflecting neighborhood segregation) and that shorter commutes is a priority for parents of younger children. The cluster proposal for Maury/Miner poses significant commute/logistical challenges especially for families with multiple children who would be on different campuses.

The report is a little cagey about academic outcomes. As someone else noted, this effort started before covid, so in an effort to control for the effects of covid on academic outcomes they avoid a straightforward analysis of whether grades/scores have risen or fallen (presumably they have fallen, but some of that is because of covid). Instead, they compare test scores to peers in other districts. The students in this district are as a whole doing better than their peer comparison groups—but not as much better as they were doing before this plan.

All Students

Scores
• SY 2022-23: D15 students overall had on average 7% higher scores in math and 5% in ELA relative to the comparison group.
• SY 2018-19: D15 students’ average scores were 8% higher in math and 7% higher in ELA.

Percent meeting state standards
• SY 2022-23: 8% more D15 students met State standards in ELA, 9% more D15 students met State standards in Math
• SY 2018-19: 11% more D15 students met State standards in ELA, 13% more D15 students met State standards in Math

Results just for PIA students are mixed. (For this report, "PIA students" are students in low-income families, Multilingual Learners, and Students in Temporary Housing).

PIA students

Scores
• SY 2022-23: D15 PIA students state test scores were on average 7% higher in math and 5% higher in ELA than the comparison group
• SY 2018-19: D15 PIA students scores were 4% higher than the comparison group for both math and ELA.

Percent meeting state standards
• SY 2022-23: 4% more D15 PIA students met State standards in ELA, 5% more D15 PIA students met State standards in Math
• SY 2018-19: 5% more D15 PIA students met State standards in ELA, 4% more D15 PIA students met State standards in Math

The report doesn't include numbers for non-PIA students specifically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

I agree you have to accept this. And while this is not your problem to solve, it is a challenge for white families in DC. Especially middle class white families for whom private school or living in one of the very few neighborhoods in DC with majority white schools. We don't need to be at a majority white school but we don't want our kids to be the ONLY white kids in a school. This means we want "diverse" schools (not 80% or more one race) but that's viewed negatively by a lot of black families. So it often feels like there is essentially nowhere else for us to go.

I dislike charters generally but the deeper we get into elementary in DCPS the more I see the appeal of them if you actually view diversity at a school as a positive. Because the black families who choose charters are generally less hostile to diversity which means they are a place where white and Asian kids can go and their families don't feel either like an invading force or like they've just copped out on attending school with non-white kids. It's artificial diversity (charter families might be racially diverse but they are often not very diverse in other ways) but at least it's a place where white kids can feel welcome without having to find a majority white school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When people say “safe neighborhood” the ey mean a neighborhood that doesn’t have any black people in it.

This is what racists mean. But there actually are people who mean a neighborhood with low crime and in particular where kids can play and go to one another's homes and to the local park and playground without being in danger. For instance Shepherd Park is a majority black neighborhood that most people I know would consider safe in this way. But Dupont Circle is a majority white neighborhood that while generally viewed as safe is not the sort of place where I'd let my elementary school kid wander around on her own.

In DC sometimes majority black and "unsafe" get conflated in part because generally high poverty rates are associated with higher crime and DC's history of segregation means that most of the poverty in the city is concentrated in the black community. But there are a number of middle class black neighborhoods in DC that are safer than some of the wealthy white neighborhoods and these neighborhoods often have better schools as well.

Nuance actually matters a lot in the this conversation.

Shepherd Park used to be predominately black but now it’s almost 85% white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is about the quality of education at the predominantly-Black middle schools, full stop. There are thousands of white families in DC that live EOTP and would love to have a safe, challenging middle school to send their kids to. It just doesn't exist. Hell, even tons of Black and Brown families are opting out of DC's public middle schools.

The schools in fact exist (EH and SH) but people find infinite reasons to disparage them.

If those are your exapmples of quality, challenging, middle schools, then you've already failed

Enjoy the burbs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are white kids at Ida B. Wells and MacFarland. Doing quite well at both. Finding challenges. They are not Deal and they are not BASIS in size or scope of opportunities at the top to challenge kids, and we know you don't like having the disruptive demographics in your kids school, so I think few DCUM minds are going to change.

But I think that after word of mouth gets out that there will be a gradual shift in thinking. Glacial, given how static view on this damn site are, but change will come.

My kid’s “highly regarded elementary” was much more disruptive than the MS people love to sh*t on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the demographics of the city are 40% black and 40% white, then the public schools should reflect that. And they often don't.

Yes, see this is my issue as a white parent. I don't think that the city sees my children as entitled to a good education. They see the DCPS job as primarily trying to decrease the achievement gap between black and white students and also meeting the educational needs of poor students in Wards 7 and 8.

Their obligation to my children is just as significant as the obligation to properly educate any other children in the city.

That said, they've been failing in their obligation to properly maintain school buildings for decades, and likely failing in many other ways.

this is such an amazingly narrow viewpoint. my kid’s school cares very much about educating him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, after a long time as a parent in the system I definitely see the gentrifier (usually white) parent coming in to say they want to improve the schools is some serious bullshit.

Generally, the schools with low gentrifier attendance are not staffed by a bunch of knuckleheads. The teachers could teach your kid, if they had your kid in their class. So what the f is 'improving' the school, then?

+100. It’s not going to be like sending your kid to school in Scarsdale but the idea that they “can’t teach my kid” or “don’t care” is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, after a long time as a parent in the system I definitely see the gentrifier (usually white) parent coming in to say they want to improve the schools is some serious bullshit.

Generally, the schools with low gentrifier attendance are not staffed by a bunch of knuckleheads. The teachers could teach your kid, if they had your kid in their class. So what the f is 'improving' the school, then?

I agree. The whole model where parents say "I'll improve the school by investing my time" implies way more impact of PTO volunteer hours than they actually have. Send your kids to a school or don't, but please don't assume the school needs you.

Yes. 100 percent. My kids were at at school that underwent rapid gentrification over the 7 years we were there, and I saw the parent community go from humbly entrusting their kids tothe teachers and admin, to parents who are constantly questioning, think that they somehow know better, and that the parties that the PTO is throwing is somehow "improving" the school.

I actually am pulling both kids out in order to put them in very high quality schools that don't have any savior vibes. The longer I'm in the system, the more I realize that the only thing that matters is the teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

So, I feel you, but I feel like it's important to live my values. Not bumper sticker stuff.

DP but the challenge for me is when my values run up against my own kid's interest. I will just be totally honest and say that I think I was unrealistic and naive about my values before I had kids in the school system and I have considerably more sympathy for people I used to privately criticize for "abandoning local schools" or "being afraid of their kids going to school with poor kids" than I ever thought I would. It is more complex than I thought it was back then and I'm not embarassed to admit that it was appropriate to roll eyes and dismiss me back when I was a prospective PK parent who wanted to "live my values." I'm now a parent of middle elementary kids and I roll my eyes at former self every day. I didn't get it.

you still don’t get it because you haven’t actually sent your kid to MS …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

So, I feel you, but I feel like it's important to live my values. Not bumper sticker stuff.

But in DCPS, where only 20 percent of DCPS graduates successfully graduate from college, "living your values" risks completely derailing your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept the reality that most black families want to attend schools with other black families. Most white families want to attend schools with other white families. This is why there is so much animosity at the diverse DCPS schools. A diverse school setting notoriously creates multiple challenges for black children.

-A Black Parent

I agree you have to accept this. And while this is not your problem to solve, it is a challenge for white families in DC. Especially middle class white families for whom private school or living in one of the very few neighborhoods in DC with majority white schools. We don't need to be at a majority white school but we don't want our kids to be the ONLY white kids in a school. This means we want "diverse" schools (not 80% or more one race) but that's viewed negatively by a lot of black families. So it often feels like there is essentially nowhere else for us to go.

I dislike charters generally but the deeper we get into elementary in DCPS the more I see the appeal of them if you actually view diversity at a school as a positive. Because the black families who choose charters are generally less hostile to diversity which means they are a place where white and Asian kids can go and their families don't feel either like an invading force or like they've just copped out on attending school with non-white kids. It's artificial diversity (charter families might be racially diverse but they are often not very diverse in other ways) but at least it's a place where white kids can feel welcome without having to find a majority white school.

My kid is at a 15% white MS and I have literally never sensed any hostility. People sure do a LOT of projecting about this stuff. If anything the majority teachers & kids seem to fine him amusing and different. I only felt hostility from one admin and that one was just a jerk who I think thought could get away with it at that school under the guise of “tough love.” But that one was literally the only one. All of the other teachers and admins were supportive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly hate this entire debate as a white parent in the system. I feel like we are the villain no matter what we do. If I send my kid to a local public school, I'm a gentrifier. If I move and send my kids to an upper NW school, I'm segregating. And god help me if I put my kids in private. There is no "good" path so I've just given up trying. I'm sick of trying to treat my children's education like some sort of symbolic signifier of my morals.

So, I feel you, but I feel like it's important to live my values. Not bumper sticker stuff.

But in DCPS, where only 20 percent of DCPS graduates successfully graduate from college, "living your values" risks completely derailing your child.

No it doesn’t, because the middle & upper class kids graduate and go to college, same as anywhere. If what you want (your values?) is to hothouse your kid among all other kids sweating the “T20” then nowhere in DCPS or any urban school district will please you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the demographics of the city are 40% black and 40% white, then the public schools should reflect that. And they often don't.

Sure but that's oversimplifying the issue. Anacostia and other EOTR neighborhoods are not 40% white, and AU Park is not 40% black. Unless you plan to bus kids all over the city, the neighborhood schools are not going to reflect the city average.

Also, school-age demographics look different than total population demographics. Edscape report shows race/ethnicity breakdown for children in DC in 2022 was 52% black, 24% white, 18% hispanic/latino, whereas the adult population was 41%, 41%, 10%. https://edscape.dc.gov/node/1385386

Would be interesting to see which schools look most like their neighborhood demographics and which the least. My spatial data skills aren't good enough for this, but I think you could come up with a fairly solid answer using existing school demographic and census data.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If we had consistently good schools that were well regarded, fewer young people would feel the need to move elsewhere before having kids.

It's not just schools. People want to raise their kids in a house with a yard and a safe kid friendly neighborhood. You need to be very rich to get that in DC

Houses in my neighborhood are selling for $650K. It doesn't get much lower in the close in suburbs. And we have yards. As do many (possibly most?) single family homes / duplexes / row houses in DC.

Now cross out duplexes and row houses and remember the safe part. What neighborhoods in DC quailfy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, after a long time as a parent in the system I definitely see the gentrifier (usually white) parent coming in to say they want to improve the schools is some serious bullshit.

Generally, the schools with low gentrifier attendance are not staffed by a bunch of knuckleheads. The teachers could teach your kid, if they had your kid in their class. So what the f is 'improving' the school, then?

I agree. The whole model where parents say "I'll improve the school by investing my time" implies way more impact of PTO volunteer hours than they actually have. Send your kids to a school or don't, but please don't assume the school needs you.

Yes. 100 percent. My kids were at at school that underwent rapid gentrification over the 7 years we were there, and I saw the parent community go from humbly entrusting their kids tothe teachers and admin, to parents who are constantly questioning, think that they somehow know better, and that the parties that the PTO is throwing is somehow "improving" the school.

I actually am pulling both kids out in order to put them in very high quality schools that don't have any savior vibes. The longer I'm in the system, the more I realize that the only thing that matters is the teaching.

So you never engaged with the teaching despite the fact that you thought it was failing your kids? Good enough for the black kids there but not yours?

[Anonymous]

that's not how I read what she wrote...