“I’d rather have a happy kid at UMD than a miserable one at Harvard”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you may have missed the point of that thread you cited. It seems very unlikely that anyone was trying to say that everyone who works hard enough to get into Harvard is going to be miserable.

But what's undeniable is that the assumption by many parents, students, high schools, etc. that one needs to be admitted to an elite college like Harvard in order to have a successful and happy life is steering a lot of kids toward misery. Many, many kids sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland.

Yes, the intensity is a positive for academic and professional success, but kids need to learn the important skill of recognizing when they've reached their limits. Research is showing that 50% of kids are highly stressed out on a daily basis, and 25% have medically diagnosable depression. And that almost always follows them to college and the workforce. Is that who we want in leadership positions in the coming decades?

This NYU study might help in understanding what's going on:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01028/full

This, this, this! You are missing the nuance.

OP here. I am NOT missing the nuance. The kids who “sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland” are practically nonexistent. I was pushed by my parents and it worked. And pretty much everyone I know who was also pushed by their parents in our immigrant enclave ended up successful. And none of us are resentful to our parents for pushing us — we are all grateful. If they have complaints because they sacrificed sleep or socializing, they are probably bad at time management and spend too much time on tiktok. It’s simply NOT that hard to get straight As in the most rigorous classes at a good suburban public while playing a sport and an instrument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

-1

OP here. I’ve never met these poor tortured tiger cubs you’re mentioning. I was pushed, and so were most of my high school friends, by immigrant tiger parents. We are grateful. None of us are resentful. You’re making up a figure in your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

-1

OP here. I’ve never met these poor tortured tiger cubs you’re mentioning. I was pushed, and so were most of my high school friends, by immigrant tiger parents. We are grateful. None of us are resentful. You’re making up a figure in your mind.

dp.. c'mon.. you don't know everyone's experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you may have missed the point of that thread you cited. It seems very unlikely that anyone was trying to say that everyone who works hard enough to get into Harvard is going to be miserable.

But what's undeniable is that the assumption by many parents, students, high schools, etc. that one needs to be admitted to an elite college like Harvard in order to have a successful and happy life is steering a lot of kids toward misery. Many, many kids sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland.

Yes, the intensity is a positive for academic and professional success, but kids need to learn the important skill of recognizing when they've reached their limits. Research is showing that 50% of kids are highly stressed out on a daily basis, and 25% have medically diagnosable depression. And that almost always follows them to college and the workforce. Is that who we want in leadership positions in the coming decades?

This NYU study might help in understanding what's going on:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01028/full

This, this, this! You are missing the nuance.

OP here. I am NOT missing the nuance. The kids who “sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland” are practically nonexistent. I was pushed by my parents and it worked. And pretty much everyone I know who was also pushed by their parents in our immigrant enclave ended up successful. And none of us are resentful to our parents for pushing us — we are all grateful. If they have complaints because they sacrificed sleep or socializing, they are probably bad at time management and spend too much time on tiktok. It’s simply NOT that hard to get straight As in the most rigorous classes at a good suburban public while playing a sport and an instrument.

I had the opposite experience. You do you. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if you attend an elite school but aren’t really qualified to be there (maybe admitted due to diversity, geography, sports) it can really backfire.

Or over prepped, cheater, parent-driven, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if you attend an elite school but aren’t really qualified to be there (maybe admitted due to diversity, geography, sports) it can really backfire.

The really interesting question, though (and the one that launched this thread) is whether it’s worthwhile to pressure and prep and groom a 97th percentile kid who would rather hang out with her friends, so that in her application she appears to be a 99th percentile kid and gets admitted. Is that kid “qualified to be there” or no? Will the pressure-cooker approach backfire?

These schools are so hard to get in though I feel like it’s an unlikely problem. Kids who are naturally motivated and can totally handle it get rejected 90 pct of the time so it’s hard to see how a slacker being prodded by parents makes the cut. The issue today is kids who are extremely qualified and capable being iced out of top schools and landing in somewhat less rigorous situations

The rigor difference between T20 and T40-80 is minimal, especially if a kid joins the honors college. Most at T40-80 are still in the Top 10-15%. Still really. really smart kids. If anything, your kid will have the opportunity to really shine at a school where they are in T5% versus just being like everyone else at a T20 school. Plenty of kids make the choice to attend the T40-80 because that is where merit is offered and as a donut hole family (or with parents who didn't save $320K for college), they cannot easily afford a T20 school even if they get in. Those kids do just fine, unless they have a terrible attitude and spend their life begrudging that they didn't get to attend an Ivy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s about the size and culture of the school. It’s Alonso about being prepared and finding a good fit with academic peers. I chose a small private school over a large public one. When I struggled freshman year, people noticed and intervened. I was around academic peers so I was challenged, but not overwhelmed and intimidated.

It is unlikely that a child who gets into a very competitive and rigorous school is going to completely burn out or flounder. All of the work they did to gain entry should have prepared them - unless it was actually the parent propping them up and doing some of the work. If a child ends up isolated and burned out, it is likely a mental health issue. I would argue that small, selective schools that naturally attract high achieving students are better prepared to monitor and intervene when students are in crisis or heading there.

+1000. Smaller schools actually do care about their students. Profs will notice if something is off, easier to do in classes of 40-50 students than say 500 at a large state school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

+1000
I knew this 30+ years ago while in college at a T10. I knew several kids taking premed courses and hating it but didn't have the guts to inform their parents that they were miserable and did NOT want to be a doctor. So they took the 2nd semester of organic chemistry and continued to do terrible and be extremely miserable. Why would a parent want their kid to be afraid of telling them they hated their major/path in life? I want my kids to be happy. They can major in whatever they want. We did however have discussions with them about what various majors mean in terms of job prospects/job pay/is a BA or BS enough or do you need a MS/MA or PHD to really use the major the way you want and do meaningful work. They can be an art history major if they want, but they need to know what likely job prospects are and what they can do to improve job proscpets with say a business minor or data analytics or CS minor, etc and that finding an internship while in college will be key towards finding a job upon graduation.

I just want them to be happy and aware of what their path in life will entail---want to be a bio or chem major and not be premed, then you are still in for some grad work unless you want to be a grunt worker in someone else's lab because you will need an advanced degree to lead the bio/chem lab.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

-1

OP here. I’ve never met these poor tortured tiger cubs you’re mentioning. I was pushed, and so were most of my high school friends, by immigrant tiger parents. We are grateful. None of us are resentful. You’re making up a figure in your mind.

NP here. OP - you are coming at this from your experience. Maybe your social circle really are all happy. Or maybe some of you friends are really good at hiding their thoughts from you, or themselves even. But I’m a high school teacher in a magnet program and see a whole lot more kids than you, and I can assure you that not everyone belongs or is thriving in the magnet environment and they are very conflicted about college and the major that has been chosen for them by their parents. Every year out of ~100 11th graders I have 2-3 of them literally crying in my office over not earning a perfect 4.0 due to my class. It doesn’t take long for the rest of the stress story to come out. Other teachers relate similar experiences. I’d estimate 10-15% of the magnet kids are truly unhappy due to being pushed too hard (not including the general 50% of them who are pretty stressed with high workload.) On the adult side, in our department of 15 there are 2 teachers who were career changers who switched to teaching after a few years because they didn’t like the field chosen by their tiger parents and didn’t enjoy their elite college experience.

Your experience is not the same as everyone’s OP. I agree with the nuanced premise from the other post (big fish, small pond is equally successful and less stressed/happier).

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is something I would think (but I didn't write it here).

I'm also the PP of the thread where my high flyer kid is coming home from school saying things like "Larlo says I need to quit theater tech crew (which he loves) to join the math team (which he would hate, my kid likes math, but he doesn't like competing in that way). Larlo says that if I don't have good extracurriculars, I won't get in anywhere for college!"

So, what I mean is that I'd rather my kid followed his heart and did what he loved (within reason), than jump through hoops in hopes that he lands at Harvard or MIT instead of UMD or VT.

Now, having said that, if my kid does whatever he does and then it turns out Harvard does like tech theater and offers him a space? Sure he can go if he chooses. I don't think my kid would be happier at UMD than at Harvard, I trust he'd visit both and know which is right*. But if the cost of Harvard is 4 years of high school spent giving up what he loves and pretending to be someone else? Then that's a cost I'd rather he didn't pay.

*This assumes the net price calculators that say they'd both cost similar amounts for us are correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you may have missed the point of that thread you cited. It seems very unlikely that anyone was trying to say that everyone who works hard enough to get into Harvard is going to be miserable.

But what's undeniable is that the assumption by many parents, students, high schools, etc. that one needs to be admitted to an elite college like Harvard in order to have a successful and happy life is steering a lot of kids toward misery. Many, many kids sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland.

Yes, the intensity is a positive for academic and professional success, but kids need to learn the important skill of recognizing when they've reached their limits. Research is showing that 50% of kids are highly stressed out on a daily basis, and 25% have medically diagnosable depression. And that almost always follows them to college and the workforce. Is that who we want in leadership positions in the coming decades?

This NYU study might help in understanding what's going on:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01028/full

This, this, this! You are missing the nuance.

OP here. I am NOT missing the nuance. The kids who “sacrifice sleep, healthy eating, friends, fun, etc. in pursuit of being one of the 5% who will be admitted, and they end up in poor physical and mental health when they enter whichever college they end up attending. They'll be miserable if they get into Harvard or if they end up at Maryland” are practically nonexistent. I was pushed by my parents and it worked. And pretty much everyone I know who was also pushed by their parents in our immigrant enclave ended up successful. And none of us are resentful to our parents for pushing us — we are all grateful. If they have complaints because they sacrificed sleep or socializing, they are probably bad at time management and spend too much time on tiktok. It’s simply NOT that hard to get straight As in the most rigorous classes at a good suburban public while playing a sport and an instrument.

Saying students like those described are "practically nonexistent" shows that you didn't read the research in the link provided and are out of touch with the reality of whatever school your child is in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the whole thread, but this is something I would think (but I didn't write it here).

I'm also the PP of the thread where my high flyer kid is coming home from school saying things like "Larlo says I need to quit theater tech crew (which he loves) to join the math team (which he would hate, my kid likes math, but he doesn't like competing in that way). Larlo says that if I don't have good extracurriculars, I won't get in anywhere for college!"

So, what I mean is that I'd rather my kid followed his heart and did what he loved (within reason), than jump through hoops in hopes that he lands at Harvard or MIT instead of UMD or VT.

Now, having said that, if my kid does whatever he does and then it turns out Harvard does like tech theater and offers him a space? Sure he can go if he chooses. I don't think my kid would be happier at UMD than at Harvard, I trust he'd visit both and know which is right*. But if the cost of Harvard is 4 years of high school spent giving up what he loves and pretending to be someone else? Then that's a cost I'd rather he didn't pay.

*This assumes the net price calculators that say they'd both cost similar amounts for us are correct.

This is the truth. Your evidence? All of the threads from decision days about how the kid wasted their high school years and didn’t get in. How all of their hard work was a waste. Way too many kids are doing things just for college admission, not because of any interest or intrinsic motivation. It’s sad and I tend to think those kids will be angry. The problem is they are angry at schools who were clear that they do holistic admissions and have minuscule admissions rates, not at their parents and neighbors who pressured them to do the activities and classes they had no interest in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

+1000
I knew this 30+ years ago while in college at a T10. I knew several kids taking premed courses and hating it but didn't have the guts to inform their parents that they were miserable and did NOT want to be a doctor. So they took the 2nd semester of organic chemistry and continued to do terrible and be extremely miserable. Why would a parent want their kid to be afraid of telling them they hated their major/path in life? I want my kids to be happy. They can major in whatever they want. We did however have discussions with them about what various majors mean in terms of job prospects/job pay/is a BA or BS enough or do you need a MS/MA or PHD to really use the major the way you want and do meaningful work. They can be an art history major if they want, but they need to know what likely job prospects are and what they can do to improve job proscpets with say a business minor or data analytics or CS minor, etc and that finding an internship while in college will be key towards finding a job upon graduation.

I just want them to be happy and aware of what their path in life will entail---want to be a bio or chem major and not be premed, then you are still in for some grad work unless you want to be a grunt worker in someone else's lab because you will need an advanced degree to lead the bio/chem lab.

+1 my DD would love to major in theater, but she also likes her comfortable life and material things. I told her that having that kind of life requires money, and that being a theater major is probably not going to earn them very much.

So, pick your path.. do you want to love what you do (theater) but not have a comfortable financial life, or do you want to find something you can be good at and make enough to live comfortably while doing theater as a hobby?

DD is a sophomore, and for now, they will probably not choose theater, but if they do, they can't' say they were not warned or told. We don't come from a wealthy family, and DD knows that. We've always impressed upon our kids about financial stability and independence. I grew up lower income, and into my early 20s, and I shared my experiences growing up this way with my kids. They don't want to live that way, and I don't want them to live the way I did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is absolutely false. When a parent withholds love from a child early on and only grants it when the child is achieving, the child will do anything for the love. Period. To assume they would rebel is naive.

By the time they are an adult, they will feel resentment.

+1. I know lots of my peers have lots of issues with their overbearing parents but don't have the energy or boldness to confront them.

+1000
I knew this 30+ years ago while in college at a T10. I knew several kids taking premed courses and hating it but didn't have the guts to inform their parents that they were miserable and did NOT want to be a doctor. So they took the 2nd semester of organic chemistry and continued to do terrible and be extremely miserable. Why would a parent want their kid to be afraid of telling them they hated their major/path in life? I want my kids to be happy. They can major in whatever they want. We did however have discussions with them about what various majors mean in terms of job prospects/job pay/is a BA or BS enough or do you need a MS/MA or PHD to really use the major the way you want and do meaningful work. They can be an art history major if they want, but they need to know what likely job prospects are and what they can do to improve job proscpets with say a business minor or data analytics or CS minor, etc and that finding an internship while in college will be key towards finding a job upon graduation.

I just want them to be happy and aware of what their path in life will entail---want to be a bio or chem major and not be premed, then you are still in for some grad work unless you want to be a grunt worker in someone else's lab because you will need an advanced degree to lead the bio/chem lab.

+1 my DD would love to major in theater, but she also likes her comfortable life and material things. I told her that having that kind of life requires money, and that being a theater major is probably not going to earn them very much.

So, pick your path.. do you want to love what you do (theater) but not have a comfortable financial life, or do you want to find something you can be good at and make enough to live comfortably while doing theater as a hobby?

DD is a sophomore, and for now, they will probably not choose theater, but if they do, they can't' say they were not warned or told. We don't come from a wealthy family, and DD knows that. We've always impressed upon our kids about financial stability and independence. I grew up lower income, and into my early 20s, and I shared my experiences growing up this way with my kids. They don't want to live that way, and I don't want them to live the way I did.

The theater majors I know in my generation are all doing fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the whole thread, but this is something I would think (but I didn't write it here).

I'm also the PP of the thread where my high flyer kid is coming home from school saying things like "Larlo says I need to quit theater tech crew (which he loves) to join the math team (which he would hate, my kid likes math, but he doesn't like competing in that way). Larlo says that if I don't have good extracurriculars, I won't get in anywhere for college!"

So, what I mean is that I'd rather my kid followed his heart and did what he loved (within reason), than jump through hoops in hopes that he lands at Harvard or MIT instead of UMD or VT.

Now, having said that, if my kid does whatever he does and then it turns out Harvard does like tech theater and offers him a space? Sure he can go if he chooses. I don't think my kid would be happier at UMD than at Harvard, I trust he'd visit both and know which is right*. But if the cost of Harvard is 4 years of high school spent giving up what he loves and pretending to be someone else? Then that's a cost I'd rather he didn't pay.

*This assumes the net price calculators that say they'd both cost similar amounts for us are correct.

This is the truth. Your evidence? All of the threads from decision days about how the kid wasted their high school years and didn’t get in. How all of their hard work was a waste. Way too many kids are doing things just for college admission, not because of any interest or intrinsic motivation. It’s sad and I tend to think those kids will be angry. The problem is they are angry at schools who were clear that they do holistic admissions and have minuscule admissions rates, not at their parents and neighbors who pressured them to do the activities and classes they had no interest in.

I started a thread about whether being in a magnet was worth it for college admissions in terms of T20. It wasn't for my DC, or for many others. A lot end up at the flagship, which isn't that easy to get into to begin with, but it didn't require being in a magnet.

Having stated that, of course, there are benefits to being in a magnet that has nothing to do with college admissions. It was the best experience and path for my DC who needed the challenge, and DC didn't struggle at all in the magnet. But, DC has seen a lot of other kids struggle academically, not to mention the commute hours reducing sleep time.

So, I believe the teacher in a magnet PP who stated that they have seen kids come in really really upset.

I could've put more pressure on DC to achieve more, and DC even agrees that if I had done that, they would've had a much better chance at a T15. But, DC would've been miserable and angry at me all the time. I don't want that kind of relationship with my child, nor do I want them to be so unhappy.

DC will be fine at the large flagship, and I know they will go on to get a good job and be happy with their lives.

DC calls me the most un-Asian American parent they've come across.