Why do people try to deny systemic racism by saying that “dirt poor POC immigrants succeed”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

White immigrants from south of the border have the benefits of being white & being considered Hispanic in college admissions.

What is the benefit of being white in college admission?

Not experiencing discrimination in k-12, allowing you to get into advanced classes & programs for example.

Ha - talk to any parent of a kid with special needs, including immature kids with ADHD, about how they weren't discriminated against in k-12.

Both can be true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about the Vietnamese boat people?

You are missing the point. The undocumented people and refugees who make it to America despite extremely adverse circumstances are the most motivated (or lucky) members of their cohort. They are extraordinary in the sense that they are driven, determined, and willing to make extreme sacrifices. Those skills transfer and create a higher likelihood that they will be successful in the US. Plenty of Black Americans succeed in spite of systemic racism because of those same characteristics - grit, determination, etc. But the immigrant group has some self-selection at play. OP is saying that because is so hard for the disadvantage to get to the U.S., of those who actually get here there has an overrepresentation of people who would be successful no matter where they landed because of their innate characteristics. So there its unfair to compare these immigrant groups to the entire population of American-born POC.

OP here agree 100%

NP. This country is made of people with grit, including those that came as European immigrants in the 1600s. This is what makes this country great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about the Vietnamese boat people?

You are missing the point. The undocumented people and refugees who make it to America despite extremely adverse circumstances are the most motivated (or lucky) members of their cohort. They are extraordinary in the sense that they are driven, determined, and willing to make extreme sacrifices. Those skills transfer and create a higher likelihood that they will be successful in the US. Plenty of Black Americans succeed in spite of systemic racism because of those same characteristics - grit, determination, etc. But the immigrant group has some self-selection at play. OP is saying that because is so hard for the disadvantage to get to the U.S., of those who actually get here there has an overrepresentation of people who would be successful no matter where they landed because of their innate characteristics. So there its unfair to compare these immigrant groups to the entire population of American-born POC.

OP here agree 100%

NP. This country is made of people with grit, including those that came as European immigrants in the 1600s. This is what makes this country great.

You mean the white colonists that came here & slaughtered the brown natives?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

White immigrants from south of the border have the benefits of being white & being considered Hispanic in college admissions.

What is the benefit of being white in college admission?

Not experiencing discrimination in k-12, allowing you to get into advanced classes & programs for example.

Ha - talk to any parent of a kid with special needs, including immature kids with ADHD, about how they weren't discriminated against in k-12.

Both can be true.

Respectfully, I’m beyond caring anymore. Every kid deserves an equal amount of attention. If yours needs more, homeschool or pay for a special school. Call it whatever you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about the Vietnamese boat people?

You are missing the point. The undocumented people and refugees who make it to America despite extremely adverse circumstances are the most motivated (or lucky) members of their cohort. They are extraordinary in the sense that they are driven, determined, and willing to make extreme sacrifices. Those skills transfer and create a higher likelihood that they will be successful in the US. Plenty of Black Americans succeed in spite of systemic racism because of those same characteristics - grit, determination, etc. But the immigrant group has some self-selection at play. OP is saying that because is so hard for the disadvantage to get to the U.S., of those who actually get here there has an overrepresentation of people who would be successful no matter where they landed because of their innate characteristics. So there its unfair to compare these immigrant groups to the entire population of American-born POC.

OP here agree 100%

NP. This country is made of people with grit, including those that came as European immigrants in the 1600s. This is what makes this country great.

You mean the white colonists that came here & slaughtered the brown natives?

Plenty of Spanish did the same. Blacks also enslaved their own, dummy. So, to answer your question. Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about the Vietnamese boat people?

You are missing the point. The undocumented people and refugees who make it to America despite extremely adverse circumstances are the most motivated (or lucky) members of their cohort. They are extraordinary in the sense that they are driven, determined, and willing to make extreme sacrifices. Those skills transfer and create a higher likelihood that they will be successful in the US. Plenty of Black Americans succeed in spite of systemic racism because of those same characteristics - grit, determination, etc. But the immigrant group has some self-selection at play. OP is saying that because is so hard for the disadvantage to get to the U.S., of those who actually get here there has an overrepresentation of people who would be successful no matter where they landed because of their innate characteristics. So there its unfair to compare these immigrant groups to the entire population of American-born POC.

OP here agree 100%

NP. This country is made of people with grit, including those that came as European immigrants in the 1600s. This is what makes this country great.

You mean the white colonists that came here & slaughtered the brown natives?

There were also brown natives that were rival tribes and slaughtered one another. It was a brutal time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

White immigrants from south of the border have the benefits of being white & being considered Hispanic in college admissions.

What is the benefit of being white in college admission?

Not experiencing discrimination in k-12, allowing you to get into advanced classes & programs for example.

Ha - talk to any parent of a kid with special needs, including immature kids with ADHD, about how they weren't discriminated against in k-12.

Both can be true.

Respectfully, I’m beyond caring anymore. Every kid deserves an equal amount of attention. If yours needs more, homeschool or pay for a special school. Call it whatever you want.

Not all SN kids have parents with the resources to do that, dummy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

Most natives on the lower economic threshold lack the drive. They would not move 200 miles to better their position never mind 2,000. It is all possible here for anyone with drive except AA. The level of discrimination that starts at pediatric care and runs through school is extreme (and I am a conservative republican).

Please explain more what you mean by this. Move 2,000 miles to where? I'm not black. I'm white. Blacks did move on their own. They moved from to Los Angeles, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Tulsa.

DP - so I'm not sure all of what the original PP was getting at, but the Great Migration was, what? 70 years ago?

Slavery ended 150+ years ago, but people believe it still impacts black people today.

The PP who started this thread of discussion said that people native to the U.S. typically wouldn't move even 200 miles to improve their situation whereas immigrants are demonstrating that they'll move thousands of miles for a better opportunity. So the drive to succeed and improve is just different among the two populations. Another countered by saying that a lot of Black people moved to LA, Detroit, etc. But if we're talking about people who moved during the Great Migration in the U.S., that was generations ago. It doesn't really say anything about the relative drives between Americans in situations that need to be improved and immigrants in similar situations. The fact that slavery wasn't as far back in time as we sometimes think doesn't really counter that argument either. If anything, it might reinforce the idea that Black culture is inferior to immigrant culture when it comes to taking initiative and putting in the effort it takes to improve one's situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

Most natives on the lower economic threshold lack the drive. They would not move 200 miles to better their position never mind 2,000. It is all possible here for anyone with drive except AA. The level of discrimination that starts at pediatric care and runs through school is extreme (and I am a conservative republican).

Please explain more what you mean by this. Move 2,000 miles to where? I'm not black. I'm white. Blacks did move on their own. They moved from to Los Angeles, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Tulsa.

DP - so I'm not sure all of what the original PP was getting at, but the Great Migration was, what? 70 years ago?

Slavery ended 150+ years ago, but people believe it still impacts black people today.

You conveniently forgot about segregation, redlining, police discrimination, oh and discrimination based on housing, hair, clothing & speaking.

Except you conveniently forgot that black families living through those discriminatory practices were more functional; more couples married and having kids in wedlock; a solid black middle class. etc. These practices do not excuse the dysfunction that now causes most of the "inequities".

[Anonymous]

The more you think of yourself as a victim, the more likely it will be true and you will be a loser. Everyone faces their own unique advantages and disadvantages in life. Get over it and focus on what you can do to change your circumstances. The victim mentality will get no one ahead and lead this country to destruction. Is this country perfect? No. But it's pretty much better than any country since the start of history in terms of giving opportunities based on merit, so please, shut up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

This may be the highest IQ post I have read on DCUM to date. Please stop raising the average IQ here above 90. Thanks

Thanks!

- ChatGPT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because they do succeed. It is not uncommon in Florida or Texas for first gen immigrants who crossed the Rio Grande to own a brick ranch house and several vehicles 10-15 years later.

The immigrants strive for the American dream and don't have the "gotta get mine" from the govt that keeps you down.

Come on over to Wicomico County Md. The Haitians and Hispanics own the local businesses. They were not living in Maryland 10-15 years ago.

General Dynamics. Lockheed Martin. SAIC. Leidos. These Beltway Bandits have that "gotta get mine" from the govt that keeps government money out of the hands of the local communities that need could thrive. It's not a black or white issue.

Gaslighting
Triangulation
Scapegoating

These are all narcissism tactics to make you believe that African Americans as the only group brought here as slaves, and then legally discriminated against in housing and commerce for generations, have always had the same advantages as newer immigrants.

As a white woman in my early 50s, I find it so disturbing that we haven't advanced more as a country. Prisons are a business. We need inmates in the prison. That's a reality. Where are they going to come from? Yes, people make bad choices. Some people have worse consequences than others. The Military Industrial Complex is too large. More funding should go to education, commerce, and development in under served communities in the U.S. Why do we want a country with unlivable areas, whether urban or rural?

White saviors just don't manage to see their own racism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

Most natives on the lower economic threshold lack the drive. They would not move 200 miles to better their position never mind 2,000. It is all possible here for anyone with drive except AA. The level of discrimination that starts at pediatric care and runs through school is extreme (and I am a conservative republican).

Please explain more what you mean by this. Move 2,000 miles to where? I'm not black. I'm white. Blacks did move on their own. They moved from to Los Angeles, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Tulsa.

DP - so I'm not sure all of what the original PP was getting at, but the Great Migration was, what? 70 years ago?

Slavery ended 150+ years ago, but people believe it still impacts black people today.

You conveniently forgot about segregation, redlining, police discrimination, oh and discrimination based on housing, hair, clothing & speaking.

Except you conveniently forgot that black families living through those discriminatory practices were more functional; more couples married and having kids in wedlock; a solid black middle class. etc. These practices do not excuse the dysfunction that now causes most of the "inequities".

Exactly. Plus, it’s well documented Black Americans also owned slaves, and most slaves were sold to slave traders by rival African tribes who captured them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

Wow. OP sounds like a classic example of American Privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

That is certainly one type of systemic racism that persists today.