Why do people try to deny systemic racism by saying that “dirt poor POC immigrants succeed”?

[Anonymous]

The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

100% this. I’m kinda blown away by the argument that dismisses the hard work of immigrants who came here with nothing and made sacrifices so their children could have better lives. What is the end game here? This narrative simply perpetuates systemic racism.

[Anonymous]

Huh? You LEGIT think every Indian immigrant has a PhD or MD from back home? Really? How about the guys working in the gas stations or 7-11s - not the owners but the actual cashier who are there on the midnight shift. Do you really believe they have a PhD in chemical engineering?

They very likely are from a village in India, maybe with a high school education - could be middle school. They got here bc they won a visa lottery and/or some other relative who came here 20 years before them was able to put in for a visa sponsorship when this particular immigrant was maybe 10 and then by age 30 he got a visa to come here and start over.

They succeed because of an iron will. They'll work that midnight shift at 7-11 and usually another job in the day time while living in a super crappy apartment - or if their family that sponsored them can take them in, then you have 2 families living in a small crappy apartment. They will be on their kids day and night about school demanding straight As in subjects they've never even studied themselves. Meanwhile they'll save every dime of their money for years and years living like this - never eating out, never buying new clothes, spending what little they have on their kids so the kids somewhat fit in at school. And the hope is always to save enough to buy a little business of their own - a gas station, a convenient store - some type of place they already work at so they understand it. Then the finances loosen a bit but the living doesn't get all that much better because it becomes about saving every dime possible to fund as much of the kid's college education as possible - because they'll be damned if their kid isn't going to be a doctor or engineer; and sure while the kid will have loans, they want to minimize that by paying as much as they possibly can.

So yeah OP for every Indian immigrant you see waltzing in as a cardiothoracic surgeon and buying their mansion and 2 Teslas in the first year, there are hundreds/thousands others living the story above. There's an iron will to succeed that I frankly don't see in certain American populations. I see far more excuse making and time-wasting in those populations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

100% this. I’m kinda blown away by the argument that dismisses the hard work of immigrants who came here with nothing and made sacrifices so their children could have better lives. What is the end game here? This narrative simply perpetuates systemic racism.

+100.

[Anonymous]

I think racists systems of the past continue to have an impact that falls disproportionately on Black people today. I also think that there is a cultural disdain for education and grind-it-out middle class employment that is more prominent in Black culture than among other non-white Americans.

It doesn't have to be one or the other; and both can be problematic. Often times, I think people point at one to avoid acknowledging or having to deal with the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school where I work is totally full of quite low-income families from Africa and Central America. They and their kids are working very hard and will do well. I have no idea how that relates to systemic racism but I just wanted to come on here to defend them that they’re not a bunch of royalty or PhD scientists.

+100. African immigrants - just like Indian immigrants before them - are ridiculously demanding of their kids. Not in a bad way but there is absolute accountability to parents for grades, for getting in trouble at school etc. That's half the battle right there in certain populations - kids who listen to the teacher, do homework, study for tests, strive for As, and don't make a nuisance of themselves at school. So yeah of course they're going to be successful and it doesn't matter that dad is a factory worker or taxi driver or whatever job they could get. The kid will very likely be an engineer or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think racists systems of the past continue to have an impact that falls disproportionately on Black people today. I also think that there is a cultural disdain for education and grind-it-out middle class employment that is more prominent in Black culture than among other non-white Americans.

It doesn't have to be one or the other; and both can be problematic. Often times, I think people point at one to avoid acknowledging or having to deal with the other.

This. Can't speak for all immigrants but amongst Asian immigrants, you talk your kid OUT of ideas of hitting it big and famous. Like no you aren't going to be an actor or famous athlete - much better to grind it out in chemistry class and go for that reliable chemical engineering degree or med school or whatever than to spend ALL your time on HS football in hopes of getting recruited D1 and then even if you get into a D1 you take a slam dunk major to again devote all your time to football and then oh look like 99% of others, you don't get drafted. Or you get drafted at a low level and get cut in 3 months or in a year - so you didn't make millions - and don't even have a good degree and internship experience to fall back on. I've actually seen this happen in a few families that I know and it's a head scratcher, as these guys came out of college with such nothing degrees and zero professional experience. Then when NFL dreams got dashed, they ended up working in a Verizon store or Bed Bath Beyond or something similar - for years for no good reason. Like it all could have been avoided even if they played college football but had some realization that the main goal of college was a profession that isn't as fleeting as sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

[Anonymous]

Maybe we should deport the African Americans whom OP thinks can't get ahead due to racism, then let them immigrate back to the US. Maybe they will have an immigrant attitude and be willing to work long hours and push their kids to succeed in school rather than blame racism for their inability to get out of poverty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Huh? You LEGIT think every Indian immigrant has a PhD or MD from back home? Really? How about the guys working in the gas stations or 7-11s - not the owners but the actual cashier who are there on the midnight shift. Do you really believe they have a PhD in chemical engineering?

They very likely are from a village in India, maybe with a high school education - could be middle school. They got here bc they won a visa lottery and/or some other relative who came here 20 years before them was able to put in for a visa sponsorship when this particular immigrant was maybe 10 and then by age 30 he got a visa to come here and start over.

They succeed because of an iron will. They'll work that midnight shift at 7-11 and usually another job in the day time while living in a super crappy apartment - or if their family that sponsored them can take them in, then you have 2 families living in a small crappy apartment. They will be on their kids day and night about school demanding straight As in subjects they've never even studied themselves. Meanwhile they'll save every dime of their money for years and years living like this - never eating out, never buying new clothes, spending what little they have on their kids so the kids somewhat fit in at school. And the hope is always to save enough to buy a little business of their own - a gas station, a convenient store - some type of place they already work at so they understand it. Then the finances loosen a bit but the living doesn't get all that much better because it becomes about saving every dime possible to fund as much of the kid's college education as possible - because they'll be damned if their kid isn't going to be a doctor or engineer; and sure while the kid will have loans, they want to minimize that by paying as much as they possibly can.

So yeah OP for every Indian immigrant you see waltzing in as a cardiothoracic surgeon and buying their mansion and 2 Teslas in the first year, there are hundreds/thousands others living the story above. There's an iron will to succeed that I frankly don't see in certain American populations. I see far more excuse making and time-wasting in those populations.

This has been my personal, casual observation as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

White immigrants from south of the border have the benefits of being white & being considered Hispanic in college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

Agreed. And people should know this if they bother to meet people different from themselves, rather than making assumptions about why certain people have or have not “made it” in America.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The argument of systematic racism is based on the premise that society is structurally racist, including the institutions of society, and that is why nonwhite races, although in this case people really mean black Americans, still can't achieve parity in outcome with white Americans despite 70 years post civil rights and 60 years post affirmative action.

One can make a genuine argument that generations of structural discrimination means black Americans have a harder time achieving. However, that is not the same as systematic racism. The widespread success of non white immigrant groups does weaken the argument behind systematic racism because if systematic racism is real, then the nonwhite immigrants should face the same problems and same outcomes as native black Americans. But that is not true at all.

The systematic racism argument is mainly used to keep shifting the goalposts and to absolve the personal responsibility factor as having a key role in outcomes.

This may be the highest IQ post I have read on DCUM to date. Please stop raising the average IQ here above 90. Thanks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

Most natives on the lower economic threshold lack the drive. They would not move 200 miles to better their position never mind 2,000. It is all possible here for anyone with drive except AA. The level of discrimination that starts at pediatric care and runs through school is extreme (and I am a conservative republican).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m frankly tired of hearing this.

In 2023, legal immigrants coming to the U.S. to work full-time jobs are a selected bunch, not a random sample. If you’re coming here, especially with your family in tow, from India, Ghana, Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, the Philippines and many other countries, there’s a 95% chance you are college-educated, debt-free already in your home country coming here for a funded PhD program or medical residency that you were already accepted into, or a programmer job at a FAANG. If you aren’t already college-educated, you’re coming here as a full-pay international student who had to prove that you had thousands in your bank account in order to get a student visa. While in your home country, you had to pay immigration lawyers & navigate that bureaucracy. Then, you had to pay $1K+ for a flight & to arrange housing. You’re upper middle class or wealthy in your home country.

If you’re coming here undocumented, you had the willpower to pay for a spot on a boat, smugglers and to walk over a hundred miles.

If you’re a Black immigrant coming from, say, Ghana, you haven’t been “othered” your whole life due to your race. And many undocumented immigrants coming from Central America are white.

Saying “immigrants do great, so why can’t natives?” is like saying “private schools do great, why can’t public schools?” because private schools pick & choose their students, just like countries pick & choose immigrants.

White immigrants who cross the southern border succeed in 10-20 years. They don't have the benefits of state-provided medical care, no benefits of AA during college admission, no benefit of speaking fluent English.

You sound like you never lived abroad. To be "othered" you don't need to be black v. white. In many countries including countries with all Caucasian populations, people are "othered" based on their ethnicity, minority groups, religion, different dialect, etc. People experience systematic discrimination on many different levels. It is very ignorant that you just brushed it off that people from India never experienced it. Go and live in India for a few years to understand their system.

White immigrants from south of the border have the benefits of being white & being considered Hispanic in college admissions.

What is the benefit of being white in college admission?