Why do people try to deny systemic racism by saying that “dirt poor POC immigrants succeed”?

[Anonymous]

In 2023 illegal immigrants walking across the border arrive with no preconceived notion the government is going to take care of them. They are coming from countries where you go to the hospital and you have to pay for the meds, food, sheets on the bed, and it goes on. Some countries there are school fees even for public education even when in theory there shouldn’t be. The only choice they see is get a job, work hard, make money.

Even when they have kids born in the US a lot will stay away from any kind of government assistance that is rightfully owed to their us citizen child out of fear that somehow they might be deported. They start to build up a life here and better to work hard, and be poor and get by than risk upsetting the fragile new life they are building just to get some food stamps. Better to ask food from a neighbor than go to the government.
Their poorest day in the US is still a thousands time better than their situation in their home country.

Wealth isn’t a name brand item to them. Wealth is an owned home. Wealth is sending money back home to support family whose living situation improves.

Systemic racism exists. It’s a roadblock. Like all roadblocks there is a way around but it takes longer. It’s unfair.
At the same time this is true so is the fact that each year white children continue to do better in school than their Black peers. Better education leads to better income potential. As those white children’s income potential increases the number of children they have decreases and the age at which they have those children increases giving them more time to accumulate wealth. This cycle plays out over and over and over. Yet somehow there is a belief that it’s wrong or that it’s broken. But it’s not. It works and that’s why the cycle continues. The barrier to entry to the cycle is actually much lower than we believe it to be. Less children per parent, more time spent with each child, more value on education. Today vs any other time in history parents have access to online education materials for their child through the internet for free. That’s pretty amazing if you think about it. In the 70s all we had was Sesame Street and the Electric company weekday morning on PBS.

Getting ahead is boring, mundane, routine, and hard. Add to that a parent might not even see the pay off for all of that in their lifetime. It might be their grandchildren or great grandchildren. We have to stop pretending that there is some program, some free money, some govt thing that is going to fix it. If any of that was true, then it would have worked in the past 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In 2023 illegal immigrants walking across the border arrive with no preconceived notion the government is going to take care of them. They are coming from countries where you go to the hospital and you have to pay for the meds, food, sheets on the bed, and it goes on. Some countries there are school fees even for public education even when in theory there shouldn’t be. The only choice they see is get a job, work hard, make money.

Even when they have kids born in the US a lot will stay away from any kind of government assistance that is rightfully owed to their us citizen child out of fear that somehow they might be deported. They start to build up a life here and better to work hard, and be poor and get by than risk upsetting the fragile new life they are building just to get some food stamps. Better to ask food from a neighbor than go to the government.
Their poorest day in the US is still a thousands time better than their situation in their home country.

Wealth isn’t a name brand item to them. Wealth is an owned home. Wealth is sending money back home to support family whose living situation improves.

Systemic racism exists. It’s a roadblock. Like all roadblocks there is a way around but it takes longer. It’s unfair.
At the same time this is true so is the fact that each year white children continue to do better in school than their Black peers. Better education leads to better income potential. As those white children’s income potential increases the number of children they have decreases and the age at which they have those children increases giving them more time to accumulate wealth. This cycle plays out over and over and over. Yet somehow there is a belief that it’s wrong or that it’s broken. But it’s not. It works and that’s why the cycle continues. The barrier to entry to the cycle is actually much lower than we believe it to be. Less children per parent, more time spent with each child, more value on education. Today vs any other time in history parents have access to online education materials for their child through the internet for free. That’s pretty amazing if you think about it. In the 70s all we had was Sesame Street and the Electric company weekday morning on PBS.

Getting ahead is boring, mundane, routine, and hard. Add to that a parent might not even see the pay off for all of that in their lifetime. It might be their grandchildren or great grandchildren. We have to stop pretending that there is some program, some free money, some govt thing that is going to fix it. If any of that was true, then it would have worked in the past 50 years.

You mean exactly how it is in the US?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In 2023 illegal immigrants walking across the border arrive with no preconceived notion the government is going to take care of them. They are coming from countries where you go to the hospital and you have to pay for the meds, food, sheets on the bed, and it goes on. Some countries there are school fees even for public education even when in theory there shouldn’t be. The only choice they see is get a job, work hard, make money.

Even when they have kids born in the US a lot will stay away from any kind of government assistance that is rightfully owed to their us citizen child out of fear that somehow they might be deported. They start to build up a life here and better to work hard, and be poor and get by than risk upsetting the fragile new life they are building just to get some food stamps. Better to ask food from a neighbor than go to the government.
Their poorest day in the US is still a thousands time better than their situation in their home country.

Wealth isn’t a name brand item to them. Wealth is an owned home. Wealth is sending money back home to support family whose living situation improves.

Systemic racism exists. It’s a roadblock. Like all roadblocks there is a way around but it takes longer. It’s unfair.
At the same time this is true so is the fact that each year white children continue to do better in school than their Black peers. Better education leads to better income potential. As those white children’s income potential increases the number of children they have decreases and the age at which they have those children increases giving them more time to accumulate wealth. This cycle plays out over and over and over. Yet somehow there is a belief that it’s wrong or that it’s broken. But it’s not. It works and that’s why the cycle continues. The barrier to entry to the cycle is actually much lower than we believe it to be. Less children per parent, more time spent with each child, more value on education. Today vs any other time in history parents have access to online education materials for their child through the internet for free. That’s pretty amazing if you think about it. In the 70s all we had was Sesame Street and the Electric company weekday morning on PBS.

Getting ahead is boring, mundane, routine, and hard. Add to that a parent might not even see the pay off for all of that in their lifetime. It might be their grandchildren or great grandchildren. We have to stop pretending that there is some program, some free money, some govt thing that is going to fix it. If any of that was true, then it would have worked in the past 50 years.

Yup. The achievement gap is the root of inequality. Research shows it starts in the home before anyone sets a foot in school. https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/wiener/programs/agi

[Anonymous]

Immigrant here in contact with immigrants of various ethnic backgrounds.

People coming in US from war thorn areas arrive here with very little but often are ‘elite’ in their countries so have goood education, connections and skills (examples are Iranians in the ‘80s or people from Afghanistan more recently. They are not uneducated poor shepperds from the mountains!).

Often people have a good professional background even when not immediately obvious (for example the nanny or the ckeaning lady in US may have been a teacher or a nurse in their own countries and are just waiting fot better opportunities to come along).

Often there is a strong personal drive to succeed (see for example Latimos or Africans opening their own businesses after years working for somebody else), a strong social pressure to get education for their children (see Chinese and South East Asian communities) abd strong family/community ties with pretty strict social expectations (for example pressure to get married and have a stable family, attention on saving money to support the family etc)

My 2 cents

[Anonymous]

Because the evidence for "systemic racism" is pretty weak, frankly. Differential outcomes does not equal racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think immigrants are largely left out of the conversation on both sides.
The narrative you hear on the left is that all Black people are disadvantaged in the US due to generations of racism and discrimination. Recent Black immigrants clearly face challenges and bias, but obviously they haven't been affected by slavery, Jim Crow, etc. in the same way as Black Americans whose ancestors were enslaved.

You have no clue what challenges each immigrant has endured. Pop your bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because the evidence for "systemic racism" is pretty weak, frankly. Differential outcomes does not equal racism.[/quote

The evidence is weak?!?

[Anonymous]

Just look at how well the native country is doing. Nigerian in America, great. No so much for the ones back home

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A LOT of minority immigrants were closer to aristocrats back home than day laborers. A lot.

You're a racist clueless pos.

Share your dumb post with your cleaning lady if you dare.

Well Exhibit A of what I"m talking about is my extended family of aunts and uncles and their friends who are all here. So I'd show any of them and they'd nod and agree.

South Asian immigrants are richer than native borns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:seriously OP - you really have no clue. My dad came here with $600 in his pocket in the 70s and the clothes on his back. Thats it. He was an orphan from a wartorn country with a funny name, a funny accent and dark skin. He has worked like a dog his whole life and now owns a home in southern california, has two successful college educated (first in his family) kids and is truly a success story.

If he can make it just about anyone can in this country. i firmly believe that. i also believe that there is systemic racism on many levels - but also sooooo many folks offering a hand to lift up the disadvantaged minorities that it seems surprising so many dont take advantage

We’re talking about in 2023, not the 70s. And like you said, your parent was highly-motivated. There was self-selection at play.

I have no sympathy for people who aren’t motivated. This apologetic attitude that you can’t compare the self-selected motivated immigrant to US citizens who have lived here for generations is crazy. Do you hear yourself?

[Anonymous]

Mabye instead of anecdotal evidence, let's look at the actual data on immigrant visa issuance:

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2022AnnualReport/FY22_TableI.pdf

The majority of visas issued to live here were for "immediate relatives" and "family sponsored". A bit over 10% were skill-based (employment preference).

When the US issues family-based immigrant visas, they don't look at education level or skills -- you just need to pass the criminal background check and your family needs to be responsible for you financially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mabye instead of anecdotal evidence, let's look at the actual data on immigrant visa issuance:

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2022AnnualReport/FY22_TableI.pdf

The majority of visas issued to live here were for "immediate relatives" and "family sponsored". A bit over 10% were skill-based (employment preference).

When the US issues family-based immigrant visas, they don't look at education level or skills -- you just need to pass the criminal background check and your family needs to be responsible for you financially.

Yes, but if you have family here you need to show that they can support you financially. The family needs to be well integrated US citizen or green card holder), have a decent income and have money/knowledge to navigate the legal process or to advocate for it through supporting agencies

[Anonymous]

The school where I work is totally full of quite low-income families from Africa and Central America. They and their kids are working very hard and will do well. I have no idea how that relates to systemic racism but I just wanted to come on here to defend them that they’re not a bunch of royalty or PhD scientists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school where I work is totally full of quite low-income families from Africa and Central America. They and their kids are working very hard and will do well. I have no idea how that relates to systemic racism but I just wanted to come on here to defend them that they’re not a bunch of royalty or PhD scientists.

This is very true. It's basically a full time job of some liberals to explain why a particular demographic underperforms. They are always in search of a new angle. I'm actually confused as to what they are trying to achieve. Maybe they just need to find a more productive hobby?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mabye instead of anecdotal evidence, let's look at the actual data on immigrant visa issuance:

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2022AnnualReport/FY22_TableI.pdf

The majority of visas issued to live here were for "immediate relatives" and "family sponsored". A bit over 10% were skill-based (employment preference).

When the US issues family-based immigrant visas, they don't look at education level or skills -- you just need to pass the criminal background check and your family needs to be responsible for you financially.

- except there has never been a single enforcement action for lack of financial responsibility since that provision went into effect after IIRIRA.