Is it typical for elementary to group all IEP kids together in the same class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And so many students have IEPs these days (or 504s), I would venture to guess that unless you are talking HS AP foreign language or HS AP high level math, EVERY classroom has at least 1, if not more than 1, with an IEP or 504

My son had an IEP from 2nd through 12 grade for dyslexia and dysgraphia. He took 8 AP and two post AP classes.

adding including AP BC calculus, AP Chem, both AP Physics C.

This isn't the issue or what she is asking. In ES, some schools put any child with an IEP in the same classroom. It doesn't matter why the child has an IEP and then they mix in a few other kids. It works great for some kids and not so great for other kids. They don't allow classroom choice and you are forced into this classroom and the only way out is to get rid of the IEP.

In my son's case it was a disaster for him. He has dyslexia and really needed and OG program. I had no issue getting the IEP because he was first eligible under speech then Specific Learning Disability. By the end of first he couldn't read and didn't have pre-reading skills like being able to rhyme, orally blend, or say the beginning or ending sounds of words. They stuck him in second grade in a class where all the students who had IEP's were placed (there were a few kids who had speech only IEP's in other rooms). There was an aide assigned full time to the class and the special ed teacher pushed in part of the day. My son did NOT get what he needed which was OG reading and spelling help. The class was so loud and there were so many behavior issue. They placed a couple of students who needed IEP's in that room but didn't have them perhaps because an aide was in there. My son barely ever got pulled to do reading and when he did he was grouped with kids who had different issues - ID, ADHD, etc. The classroom had to be evacuated regularly because of two really disruptive students.

In the end I had to have him exit special ed so he wouldn't be placed in that type of classroom for third grade. I had him switch to a 504 plan and he got help from the school reading intervention teacher who was SO much better than the special ed teacher. He didn't qualify to get help from the intervention teacher when he was in special ed.

This post makes no sense and is filled with ignorance, especially the bolded.

OP here. Were you under the impression that I wrote the above post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 person asked for whatever reason. Trust me. NO ONE cares. OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs because it wouldn't be good for her so I think posters were trying to ascertain what is the diagnosis that would require this?.

OP here. Feel free to quote where I said I did not want my child around other children with IEPs.

On page 3 at 20:17 you said "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." Personally, I think it's fine to be concerned about that, but you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. Many people here are parents of students with high needs, and social and educational exclusion, stereotypes, and assumptions are a big part of our lives.

You think it's reasonable to go from "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." to "OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs "?

I don't think that's reasonable. In fact a natural consequence of the model that I am concerned about is that the children in the other classes are being kept away from childen with IEPs.

Well, I wasn't the one accusing you of "going on about" it. But it does seem like you're concerned about something. Just trying to guess, is it that the inclusion classroom staff will be overwhelmed trying to meet the needs, or that the inclusion classroom atmosphere will be noisy and often disrupted, or... that your child might be the only child with an IEP in a non-inclusion classroom because all the other children with IEPs are in another room? I really don't know. But clearly you think something about an inclusion class model is not going to work for your child.

Have you never been concerned about your child or how well the school can serve them?

Also, you are using a term "inclusion class model" without clearly defining it. If the definition is that it is a class that includes children with IEPs and children without IEPs, then no that does not concern me. That's what I want for my child. What would concern me is if it were called an "inclusion class" but is in fact a class for children with IEPs, which is not what I could consider "inclusion". But I am new to this.

Of course I have been concerned about it. I think most people are concerned about that at least some of the time.

"Inclusion" doesn't have a firm definition that I'm aware of, you'd have to look at Maryland state law for it. But generally, an inclusion class means that some of the children have IEPs and some of them don't, and grade level content is taught (as well as other levels as needed). The children with IEPs are being *included* in a classroom that is otherwise a general education classroom and teaches to grade level standards, but there's also an additional teacher and additional staff so that everything can be managed and all services on everyone's IEP can be provided. The "10:6" program at Garrison Elementary is an example of that type of classroom.

A class for only children with IEPs and not any children without IEPs would not be called an "inclusion" class. Some schools have classrooms that are only for students with IEPs, but they usually aren't just a room for everyone with an IEP no matter what the IEP is. That would be illegal because each child is entitled to the Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) in which they can access the curriculum, and lots of children with IEPs are just fine in gen-ed classrooms with a little support. So in DCPS, there are several different types of self-contained classroom and placement depends on what is on each child's IEP. But there are also students with IEPs who are in the general education classrooms with push-in support (meaning aides or teachers who visit the classroom).

You might like to look at this DCPS summary, as an example.
https://dcps.dc.gov/page/academic-programs-and-inclusion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 person asked for whatever reason. Trust me. NO ONE cares. OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs because it wouldn't be good for her so I think posters were trying to ascertain what is the diagnosis that would require this?.

OP here. Feel free to quote where I said I did not want my child around other children with IEPs.

On page 3 at 20:17 you said "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." Personally, I think it's fine to be concerned about that, but you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. Many people here are parents of students with high needs, and social and educational exclusion, stereotypes, and assumptions are a big part of our lives.

You think it's reasonable to go from "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." to "OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs "?

I don't think that's reasonable. In fact a natural consequence of the model that I am concerned about is that the children in the other classes are being kept away from childen with IEPs.

Well, I wasn't the one accusing you of "going on about" it. But it does seem like you're concerned about something. Just trying to guess, is it that the inclusion classroom staff will be overwhelmed trying to meet the needs, or that the inclusion classroom atmosphere will be noisy and often disrupted, or... that your child might be the only child with an IEP in a non-inclusion classroom because all the other children with IEPs are in another room? I really don't know. But clearly you think something about an inclusion class model is not going to work for your child.

Have you never been concerned about your child or how well the school can serve them?

Also, you are using a term "inclusion class model" without clearly defining it. If the definition is that it is a class that includes children with IEPs and children without IEPs, then no that does not concern me. That's what I want for my child. What would concern me is if it were called an "inclusion class" but is in fact a class for children with IEPs, which is not what I could consider "inclusion". But I am new to this.

Of course I have been concerned about it. I think most people are concerned about that at least some of the time.

"Inclusion" doesn't have a firm definition that I'm aware of, you'd have to look at Maryland state law for it. But generally, an inclusion class means that some of the children have IEPs and some of them don't, and grade level content is taught (as well as other levels as needed). The children with IEPs are being *included* in a classroom that is otherwise a general education classroom and teaches to grade level standards, but there's also an additional teacher and additional staff so that everything can be managed and all services on everyone's IEP can be provided. The "10:6" program at Garrison Elementary is an example of that type of classroom.

A class for only children with IEPs and not any children without IEPs would not be called an "inclusion" class. Some schools have classrooms that are only for students with IEPs, but they usually aren't just a room for everyone with an IEP no matter what the IEP is. That would be illegal because each child is entitled to the Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) in which they can access the curriculum, and lots of children with IEPs are just fine in gen-ed classrooms with a little support. So in DCPS, there are several different types of self-contained classroom and placement depends on what is on each child's IEP. But there are also students with IEPs who are in the general education classrooms with push-in support (meaning aides or teachers who visit the classroom).

You might like to look at this DCPS summary, as an example.
https://dcps.dc.gov/page/academic-programs-and-inclusion

So theoretically if there were a class with 18 children and 14 had IEPs, while the other classes in the grade had no children with IEPs, would that be considered an "inclusion" model?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 3 yo with what appear to be mild special needs and are zoned for Oakland Terrace ES in MCPS. I have seen some posts on DCUM complaining that IEP kids at this school were segregated from other children into.the same class. We do not have an IEP yet (have requested Child Find screening) but am paranoid if she gets one, this model will not work for her for a few reasons. I thought kids with IEPs should be integrated, not segregated.

Typically, students with IEPs are not segregated but they are placed into one class mixed with students who do not have IEPs. Placing students with IEPs in one class, with other students who do not have IEPs, is not segregation by any definition of the word. Putting students with IEPs in one class makes it easier to provide them with the support they are entitled to. It makes it easier to schedule pull out support, and easier to do push in support and typically results in your student getting more support and access to the sped teacher because she is frequently in the one class instead of constantly needing to go from class to class. What is your problem here, that your child may be in a class with other students who are similar to them? You don't want your child in a class with other students who need IEPs? You feel like your child should only be educated with students who don't need IEPs?

Uhh no. I would file complaints with my state DOE immediately if I encountered this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Then they fill the gen ed seats in the room with nice kids who will work well with others. The problem is that when they have the IEP kids with major behavioral issues all in one room, it’s stressful for everyone.it’s not really a gen ed setting in an IEP service hours page if most of the kids have IEPs.

Not all IEP kids have behavioral issue so the other issue is that the quiet kids with SN who need more support often get ignored as they aren't acting out.

OP here. This is exactly my concern. It is helpful to know though that this is a typical practice and not one school going against a policy. I do get that it is what it is.

It's not typical and it should not be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 person asked for whatever reason. Trust me. NO ONE cares. OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs because it wouldn't be good for her so I think posters were trying to ascertain what is the diagnosis that would require this?.

OP here. Feel free to quote where I said I did not want my child around other children with IEPs.

On page 3 at 20:17 you said "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." Personally, I think it's fine to be concerned about that, but you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. Many people here are parents of students with high needs, and social and educational exclusion, stereotypes, and assumptions are a big part of our lives.

You think it's reasonable to go from "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." to "OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs "?

I don't think that's reasonable. In fact a natural consequence of the model that I am concerned about is that the children in the other classes are being kept away from childen with IEPs.

Well, I wasn't the one accusing you of "going on about" it. But it does seem like you're concerned about something. Just trying to guess, is it that the inclusion classroom staff will be overwhelmed trying to meet the needs, or that the inclusion classroom atmosphere will be noisy and often disrupted, or... that your child might be the only child with an IEP in a non-inclusion classroom because all the other children with IEPs are in another room? I really don't know. But clearly you think something about an inclusion class model is not going to work for your child.

Have you never been concerned about your child or how well the school can serve them?

Also, you are using a term "inclusion class model" without clearly defining it. If the definition is that it is a class that includes children with IEPs and children without IEPs, then no that does not concern me. That's what I want for my child. What would concern me is if it were called an "inclusion class" but is in fact a class for children with IEPs, which is not what I could consider "inclusion". But I am new to this.

Of course I have been concerned about it. I think most people are concerned about that at least some of the time.

"Inclusion" doesn't have a firm definition that I'm aware of, you'd have to look at Maryland state law for it. But generally, an inclusion class means that some of the children have IEPs and some of them don't, and grade level content is taught (as well as other levels as needed). The children with IEPs are being *included* in a classroom that is otherwise a general education classroom and teaches to grade level standards, but there's also an additional teacher and additional staff so that everything can be managed and all services on everyone's IEP can be provided. The "10:6" program at Garrison Elementary is an example of that type of classroom.

A class for only children with IEPs and not any children without IEPs would not be called an "inclusion" class. Some schools have classrooms that are only for students with IEPs, but they usually aren't just a room for everyone with an IEP no matter what the IEP is. That would be illegal because each child is entitled to the Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) in which they can access the curriculum, and lots of children with IEPs are just fine in gen-ed classrooms with a little support. So in DCPS, there are several different types of self-contained classroom and placement depends on what is on each child's IEP. But there are also students with IEPs who are in the general education classrooms with push-in support (meaning aides or teachers who visit the classroom).

You might like to look at this DCPS summary, as an example.
https://dcps.dc.gov/page/academic-programs-and-inclusion

So theoretically if there were a class with 18 children and 14 had IEPs, while the other classes in the grade had no children with IEPs, would that be considered an "inclusion" model?

I don't know, that's a technical question and might be a matter of law depending on where you live. I agree that's not a great ratio, but I think it would depend on the specific situation. There are lots of children with IEPs who are working on grade level, so if there's a significant group of children who work on grade level (even if some or all of them have IEPs), then the children with IEPs are included in a classroom with gen ed students and grade level content is available to them. And those are the key things to call it "inclusion".

What's really important is the question of whether each child's needs are being met, and whether the school is compliant with each child's IEP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 3 yo with what appear to be mild special needs and are zoned for Oakland Terrace ES in MCPS. I have seen some posts on DCUM complaining that IEP kids at this school were segregated from other children into.the same class. We do not have an IEP yet (have requested Child Find screening) but am paranoid if she gets one, this model will not work for her for a few reasons. I thought kids with IEPs should be integrated, not segregated.

They shouldn’t only be in certain classes. It is not Least Restrictive Environment. It is also not fair to the teachers. They are basically treating them as something akin to team taught classes. It is not inclusion.

Yes, it is inclusion. Kids are in the general education class all day with support pushing in as determined by IEP hours. That is the LRE. I taught the inclusion class for years and loved it. I did my best teaching when I had a special education co-teacher in the room with me.

It is not inclusion if they are grouped together in one class. A classroom that has a special Ed co-teacher is a great set up, but it is not inclusion- it is team taught. Team taught is more inclusive than other more segregated environments, but it is not full inclusion. In the set up of having the students with IEPs grouped in one or two classes, means that they are excluded from the classes with no students with IEPs.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 3 yo with what appear to be mild special needs and are zoned for Oakland Terrace ES in MCPS. I have seen some posts on DCUM complaining that IEP kids at this school were segregated from other children into.the same class. We do not have an IEP yet (have requested Child Find screening) but am paranoid if she gets one, this model will not work for her for a few reasons. I thought kids with IEPs should be integrated, not segregated.

They shouldn’t only be in certain classes. It is not Least Restrictive Environment. It is also not fair to the teachers. They are basically treating them as something akin to team taught classes. It is not inclusion.

Yes, it is inclusion. Kids are in the general education class all day with support pushing in as determined by IEP hours. That is the LRE. I taught the inclusion class for years and loved it. I did my best teaching when I had a special education co-teacher in the room with me.

It is not inclusion if they are grouped together in one class. A classroom that has a special Ed co-teacher is a great set up, but it is not inclusion- it is team taught. Team taught is more inclusive than other more segregated environments, but it is not full inclusion. In the set up of having the students with IEPs grouped in one or two classes, means that they are excluded from the classes with no students with IEPs.

+1

But what if each class at the school has a different group of students with IEPs and is team taught? So like literally every child in the school is in a team taught classroom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, your kid is not some special snowflake. Sorry.

What are you doing in this forum? You have no place here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

How would a parent come to know that it is happening?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's very typical to group students with IEPs rather than spreading them across all classes. It's much easier to provide support that way.

This is not ok. Parents need to file complaints when they see this.

Then you better also open your checkbooks because there are only a certain amount of SPED teachers on schools budgets and they aren't able to split themselves into multiple places at once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 person asked for whatever reason. Trust me. NO ONE cares. OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs because it wouldn't be good for her so I think posters were trying to ascertain what is the diagnosis that would require this?.

OP here. Feel free to quote where I said I did not want my child around other children with IEPs.

On page 3 at 20:17 you said "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." Personally, I think it's fine to be concerned about that, but you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. Many people here are parents of students with high needs, and social and educational exclusion, stereotypes, and assumptions are a big part of our lives.

NP. You are causing problems. Stop reacting emotionally and taking her post personally. Op is right that students with disabilities should not be concentrated in a class. Take it to the state DOE or fed DOE and see what they say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 3 yo with what appear to be mild special needs and are zoned for Oakland Terrace ES in MCPS. I have seen some posts on DCUM complaining that IEP kids at this school were segregated from other children into.the same class. We do not have an IEP yet (have requested Child Find screening) but am paranoid if she gets one, this model will not work for her for a few reasons. I thought kids with IEPs should be integrated, not segregated.

Typically, students with IEPs are not segregated but they are placed into one class mixed with students who do not have IEPs. Placing students with IEPs in one class, with other students who do not have IEPs, is not segregation by any definition of the word. Putting students with IEPs in one class makes it easier to provide them with the support they are entitled to. It makes it easier to schedule pull out support, and easier to do push in support and typically results in your student getting more support and access to the sped teacher because she is frequently in the one class instead of constantly needing to go from class to class. What is your problem here, that your child may be in a class with other students who are similar to them? You don't want your child in a class with other students who need IEPs? You feel like your child should only be educated with students who don't need IEPs?

This is how my son’s elementary classroom is set up in APS. He has a teacher, a full time SpecEd Teacher and a a full time aide in a classroom with 20 kids. It seems to be a good set up. My child is not SpecEd and is in the gifted cohort. The gifted teacher comes in and does critical thinking and creativity exercises with the whole class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1 person asked for whatever reason. Trust me. NO ONE cares. OP kept going on about wanting her kid away from others with IEPs because it wouldn't be good for her so I think posters were trying to ascertain what is the diagnosis that would require this?.

OP here. Feel free to quote where I said I did not want my child around other children with IEPs.

On page 3 at 20:17 you said "My concern is around concentrating the highest needs students in one classroom and how that will affect my child." Personally, I think it's fine to be concerned about that, but you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. Many people here are parents of students with high needs, and social and educational exclusion, stereotypes, and assumptions are a big part of our lives.

NP. You are causing problems. Stop reacting emotionally and taking her post personally. Op is right that students with disabilities should not be concentrated in a class. Take it to the state DOE or fed DOE and see what they say.

They will say that it's legal under certain circumstances, if IEPs are met. That is why many school districts very openly operate this model.