Per ATL: Yale & Harvard Law No Longer T14

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

Well of course they would say that. They have to do damage control. I’d be embarrassed too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

The Yale students violated academic decorum, nothing more. Completely overblown. The Federalist Society's invited speaker got to speak.

She should have been able to speak without being harassed by a bunch of virtue signaling loons in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

The Yale students violated academic decorum, nothing more. Completely overblown. The Federalist Society's invited speaker got to speak.

She should have been able to speak without being harassed by a bunch of virtue signaling loons in the first place.

Boo hoo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a trash ranking just based on the huge variance from year to year. Schools don't change that much in a year. They need to hire a better statistician. That's why US News has some credibility in that its formula at least results in a rather stable top 20 list.

I disagree US News is likely paid by some of these schools and a great majority of these schools are coasting off their reputations. I don't want a "stable" list, I want a truthful list which is what ATL has given us here.

Any reputable ranking will produce a rather stable list, because the truth is schools' quality don't change overnight. The truth is Stanford is definitely a top 25 LS, and HLS and YLS are definitely are in the top 14. This "ranking" needs a lot of improvement in statistics-design. It may tell something you want to hear but it's a meaningless list. You are better off looking at any specific employment statistics if you are so into the "outcome" aspect.

This ranking doesn’t measure “quality.” It measures outcomes. The ATL analysis agrees that Yale is still an excellent law school from an academic standpoint; however, the employment data is the data. If you have evidence that the data is flawed, other than, “it shouldn’t have changed so much,” please provide it. If you follow the links on the ATL list, you can see where they got the data (the data is reported by the schools themselves, by the way). But you didn’t bother to look before you criticized the data, did you?

In any case, the data has shown pretty consistent results in the past, including showing a slide down these rankings for these schools. Harvard/Stanford/Yale were 1/2/5 in 2015. Stanford/Yale/Harvard were 1/3/5 in 2017. By 2019, S/H/Y were 6/9/10, respectively. In 2020 they were 6/7/8. In 2021, 6/8/9. For Yale and Harvard, the slide to 15 and 16 is less of a move than the change in 2019. The big shocker is Stanford. Maybe there is some glitch, but if Stanford reported flawed data, that’s on them.

[Anonymous]

Harvard and Yale absolutely consider parental assets in determining need-based age through the student’s age of 28

Our kid got into HLS last year, and our expected contribution was around $30k which we weren’t in position to pay since we still have an undergraduate (and they also gave him about $20k in need based aid). He took a full ride to another T6 school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale absolutely consider parental assets in determining need-based age through the student’s age of 28

Our kid got into HLS last year, and our expected contribution was around $30k which we weren’t in position to pay since we still have an undergraduate (and they also gave him about $20k in need based aid). He took a full ride to another T6 school

This is insane. What happens if you don't submit that financial info? Will they just auto-reject your app? What if a 26 year-old is estranged from their parents?

I'm guessing these schools are loathe to admit anyone over the age of 28 since they can't look through to the parents' finances. I'd love to see the admission data - I bet rejections skyrocket for anyone over age 28 (relative to those 21-27).

[Anonymous]

I think the PP, might be on to something. I didn't know law schools considered or factored in parents financial income until the age of 28. I'm guessing most people do not know this and this might be a secret amongst many Ivy League schools or those that are T50.
Perhaps ATL is trying to point that out and is leaving clues for the masses to find. It's interesting to know that H/Y/S are slacking when it comes to employment outcomes (even when clerkships) are counted as employment.

Whatever the case, these days employers are recognizing that there are other law schools producing quality candidates. It's better to get a full ride in the T40 than to be enslaved in debt to an Ivy. Should loan forgiveness ever occur, I'm almost certain Ivy League and private schools would be locked out of loan forgiveness because the general consensus would be that Ivy League degrees open up jobs and opportunities that others might not be privy to. Thus, those with Ivy privileges might not need loan forgiveness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All my friends crushing it in Big Law are not Ivy + Stanford grads. Instead, they are Boston College, UVA, Georgetown, Emory, etc.

My Ivy Law friends all work in government (with me!) or made the jump to academia. Lots of them did clerkships, whereas the non-Ivies pretty much all take a Big Law job if they can get one.

A good amount of Ivy law grads tend to be very idealistic, a bit lazy and financially well off to coast at a fed agency instead of grinding through the law firm puppy mill. The rest w/o silver spoons must work to pay off their loans. Top law firms are recognizing that they don't want to deal with virtue signalers & young Ivy League grads who may affect their bottom line by breaking confidentiality through a leaked TikTock video.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

That’s just one incident. The treatment of the student who wrote the “trap house” email? The students are bad, but the Yale Law Administration’s handling of these incidents is worse.

Unlike most reporters who covered the Amy Chua saga, Liz Breunig actually did some reporting and talked to the students involved. The Yale Law Administration has tried to ruin the careers of students who wouldn’t file complaints against Amy Chua.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/amy-chua-yale-law-school-real-story-dinner-party/619558/

Yale Law School is a funny place: Everyone you talk to says they’re there more or less for charity work, but somehow the graduates keep getting rich and famous. While we all contemplate that mystery, the Guest and the Visitor will be contemplating something very different—how to recover from this strange turn of events. The Guest, whose only documented offense was visiting Chua to talk about his run at the Journal, withdrew his application for the Coker fellowship, and applied for no clerkships. The Visitor quietly accepted one fellowship, and likewise declined to seek any clerkships, reasoning along the same lines as the Guest. What else could they have done? It takes an admirable perceptiveness to know when the truth can’t save you anymore.

+1. It's been a series of Yale/faculty/yale law school craziness over the last few years. Employers and judges are taking note. If you are runing a blue chip law firm you don't want SJW lawyers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale absolutely consider parental assets in determining need-based age through the student’s age of 28

Our kid got into HLS last year, and our expected contribution was around $30k which we weren’t in position to pay since we still have an undergraduate (and they also gave him about $20k in need based aid). He took a full ride to another T6 school

This is insane. What happens if you don't submit that financial info? Will they just auto-reject your app? What if a 26 year-old is estranged from their parents?

I'm guessing these schools are loathe to admit anyone over the age of 28 since they can't look through to the parents' finances. I'd love to see the admission data - I bet rejections skyrocket for anyone over age 28 (relative to those 21-27).

If you don’t submit it, you’re not considered for any need-based financial aid

HLS offered my son $20k in need-based aid, but then expected us to contribute $30k

If parents don’t pay their expected contribution, students tack it onto their loans

[Anonymous]

Someone from a non-Ivy law school is pushing this narrative hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone from a non-Ivy law school is pushing this narrative hard.

Could just be a lesser Ivy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone from a non-Ivy law school is pushing this narrative hard.

Someone who isn't a lawyer thinks "Ivy law schools" are what matter.

The term you are looking for is T14, which include a number of non-Ivy law schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone from a non-Ivy law school is pushing this narrative hard.

I'm bot sure if you've seen the latest rankings but even Harvard/Yale have dropped in US News rankings. It's not a narrative when people recognize things are going downhill at those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone from a non-Ivy law school is pushing this narrative hard.

I'm bot sure if you've seen the latest rankings but even Harvard/Yale have dropped in US News rankings. It's not a narrative when people recognize things are going downhill at those schools.

**not**