Per ATL: Yale & Harvard Law No Longer T14

[Anonymous]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abovethelaw.com/2022/06/the-2022-atl-top-50-law-school-rankings-are-here/%3Famp%3D1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I think that's more like it. A Harvard Law grad will either be much pickier about their jobs, and/or want a career in research or education that does not come with a large salary. I don't think Obama made that much money before becoming President

No. His wife also worked briefly, dipped feet in healthcare and U Chicago’s programs and then stayed home to support his career. They weren’t in it for money but worked out well in the end and they made lots of money after young retirement

Michelle was at Sidley Austin when they met (he was a summer associate) and then went on to a cushy VP job at the UChicago Health Center. She wasn’t exactly working for peanuts. Both of them would have qualified as employed by ATL standards.

The interesting thing is that these schools used to be at the top of the ATL rankings. The methodology has r changed, the schools have. The ATL analysis states that Yale/Harvard/Stanford appear to have chosen a different path. That’s fine, but the argument is often made here that these schools are best for those who want BigLaw jobs. In fact, it’s been argued that your chances at top dollar legal employment is slim if you go to any school below the USNWR top 14. This data shows that this is increasingly not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone is figuring out that Ivies and their professional schools are good but no super special compared to other schools in same tier.

Which explains why the non-Ivy suffered the most precipitous fall?

A few years ago one of my interns was headed off to Stanford Law, and when she excitedly explained to me that Stanford Law no longer gave grades or calculated class rankings, I remember thinking “Hmmm.” I had done a lot of recruiting for my BigLaw firm back in the day, and I wondered how that was going to work out.

I think Yale/Harvard/Stanford all have basically a “Honors/pass/fail” system now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I think that's more like it. A Harvard Law grad will either be much pickier about their jobs, and/or want a career in research or education that does not come with a large salary. I don't think Obama made that much money before becoming President

No. His wife also worked briefly, dipped feet in healthcare and U Chicago’s programs and then stayed home to support his career. They weren’t in it for money but worked out well in the end and they made lots of money after young retirement

Michelle was at Sidley Austin when they met (he was a summer associate) and then went on to a cushy VP job at the UChicago Health Center. She wasn’t exactly working for peanuts. Both of them would have qualified as employed by ATL standards.

The interesting thing is that these schools used to be at the top of the ATL rankings. The methodology has r changed, the schools have. The ATL analysis states that Yale/Harvard/Stanford appear to have chosen a different path. That’s fine, but the argument is often made here that these schools are best for those who want BigLaw jobs. In fact, it’s been argued that your chances at top dollar legal employment is slim if you go to any school below the USNWR top 14. This data shows that this is increasingly not true.

Just to clarify, the "top 10" in this ATL ranking are still all US News T14 schools, except WashU and Vandy, which are ranked 16 and 17 in US News, not exactly far off. The unusual aspect about this ATL ranking is HYS falling out of its top 10.

[Anonymous]

Someone did not get in to HYS + did a revenge article

[Anonymous]

HYS are the only 3 law schools that offer $0 merit aid which means virtually all students graduate with massive debt. That hurts them in these rankings vs schools where the average debt load is significantly less

[Anonymous]

Tweak the methodology —> create clickbait nonsense. Womp, womp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone is figuring out that Ivies and their professional schools are good but no super special compared to other schools in same tier.

Which explains why the non-Ivy suffered the most precipitous fall?

A few years ago one of my interns was headed off to Stanford Law, and when she excitedly explained to me that Stanford Law no longer gave grades or calculated class rankings, I remember thinking “Hmmm.” I had done a lot of recruiting for my BigLaw firm back in the day, and I wondered how that was going to work out.

I think Yale/Harvard/Stanford all have basically a “Honors/pass/fail” system now.

Wut

[Anonymous]

When Yale law students have tantrums preventing debates and can’t handle open debate, and professors are pushed out when others don’t agree with their opinions, that’s a big problem. Yale law is a joke (the college is too, but I expect more from the Law School).

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/faith-freedom-self-reliance/law-schools-are-the-new-front-lines-in-free-speech-wars

https://fightforyale.com/

https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/yale-law-students-blackballed-refusing-lie-about-professor-lawsuit-says-2021-11-16/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/amy-chua-yale-law-school-real-story-dinner-party/619558/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I have yet to know an HYS law grad now teaching at a top law school who also has a PhD. Not one and I know more than a few.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HYS are the only 3 law schools that offer $0 merit aid which means virtually all students graduate with massive debt. That hurts them in these rankings vs schools where the average debt load is significantly less

Choices have consequences....

[Anonymous]

I don't think job placement should count double of important clerkships. Count getting a clerkship as employment. Some of those random school jobs are with low paying firms. A clerkship is a low paying prestigious job.

Redo the percentages including that and you'll be back to Yale and Harvard. And no, I did not graduate from either, but I do understand how hard it is to get an important clerkship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HYS are the only 3 law schools that offer $0 merit aid which means virtually all students graduate with massive debt. That hurts them in these rankings vs schools where the average debt load is significantly less

Except they’ve always been at the top of this list before and the methodology wasn’t changed.

[Anonymous]

I guess if the metric is how much money you make, this makes sense. But lane is weird in that the very top people don’t make that much money. My spouse has made a seven figure per year income for years as a BigLaw partner. But he hates it and has tried for years to get one of the prestigious government positions unsuccessfully. I know other lawyers who gladly give up the big bucks for judgeships, professorships, public interest careers, etc. HLS and YLS are disproportionately represented in those careers.

But if you want to be a partner at a big law firm in the south, it totally makes sense to go to Duke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think job placement should count double of important clerkships. Count getting a clerkship as employment. Some of those random school jobs are with low paying firms. A clerkship is a low paying prestigious job.

Redo the percentages including that and you'll be back to Yale and Harvard. And no, I did not graduate from either, but I do understand how hard it is to get an important clerkship.

The job placement ranking does include clerkships. From the article:

QUALITY JOBS SCORE (35%)
This measures the schools’ success at placing students on career paths that best enable them to pay off their student debts. We’ve combined placement with the country’s largest and best-paying law firms and the percentage of graduates embarking on federal judicial clerkships. These clerkships typically lead to a broader and enhanced range of employment opportunities.

https://abovethelaw.com/top-law-schools-2022/