Per ATL: Yale & Harvard Law No Longer T14

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This ROI ranking approach is ridiculous. If it applied to DMV schools, only publics would do well (Very little “I” in the ROI) vs. the most expensive privates. And what about the people getting close to full rides at HLS and YLS?

They look at debt, not cost. And that was the case in past years when Y/H/S did better in these rankings. Interestingly enough, as mentioned in the article, if cost were the driving factor, you’d expect state schools to do better than they did. There are more state schools in the USNWR top 10 and 30 than in the ATL ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, both private sector and high-ranking government, for Yale this isn’t a surprise. I don’t know what it is, but for some reason Yale grads seem unequipped for real world law jobs. Harvard/Stanford doesn’t make sense to me.

Well, it does when you take into account David Lat when to Yale - hence Yale’s position just above the cut-off -and he then puts rivals Stanford and Harvard much lower

Davis Lat is no longer associated with ATL.

Meant to add — and he’s been very critical of Yale Law as of late.

*David*

Here’s some of his latest thoughts: https://davidlat.substack.com/p/is-free-speech-in-american-law-schools?s=r

Many observers have attributed the more extreme reactions on college campuses to youth and immaturity and reassured everyone that these students would snap out of it after they encountered the reality of the working world. After watching the mess last week at the Washington Post, that is far from clear. I do wonder if employers are looking at these schools and deciding “Who needs the drama?” There are lots of smart, ambitious students at other schools who will work hard and not take every grievance straight to Twitter.

[Anonymous]

What happens with people who do joint degrees thar get a job in their other field, like a jd/mba or jd/mph

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I have yet to know an HYS law grad now teaching at a top law school who also has a PhD. Not one and I know more than a few.

Any of them not retirement age?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I have yet to know an HYS law grad now teaching at a top law school who also has a PhD. Not one and I know more than a few.

Any of them not retirement age?

The Phd/law prof is a relatively new phenomenon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone post the top 10- I do not have an ATL account and do not want to do so and get sucked into its vortex 😊.

Here's top 25.

A win for Catholic law schools -- BC and ND up...ND passes Yale and Harvard. Gotta love it.

Maybe what’s happening is that alumni from the top schools are more likely to take management jobs at big companies, rather than jobs that require a law degree.

[Anonymous]

Is working for the federal govt considered a "quality job"?
What about an organization like the ACLU?
And then there are all those Trump judges who need to hire clerks - Vanderbilt and BYU is probably their version of Yale and Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe HYS grads are just turning away from soul-crushing stints in Big Law and going on to get PhDs (needed to become a professor at top law schools - most of whom have JDs from HYS) or going in house right away at tech start ups that offered greater deferred compensation. In any event, COVID-times make the job numbers everywhere wonky.

I have yet to know an HYS law grad now teaching at a top law school who also has a PhD. Not one and I know more than a few.

I’m not a lawyer (I have a PhD and am idly clicking through recent topics), but even I know a Harvard law grad/Yale PhD who is a prof at Northwestern in IP law (not sure if Northwestern counts as a top law school though?). The pay was reportedly not big-law amazing, but (from the outside) it appears to be a really sweet gig.

I graduated from YLS in 99. There are several of my fellow graduates who are law professors now. I can think of a couple that have joint PhDs. I think that was considered a solid way to go straight to academia, but the majority got there with an appellate clerkship followed by a highish profile job and some publishing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Considering the recent idiocy of YLS students, I'm not particularly surprised. Who would want to hire these twits?

Bingo. A+++ in smug virtue signaling. As an employer, no thanks.

[Anonymous]

Conservative federal appeals court judge Senior U.S. Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman sent an email message to federal judges nationwide urges U.S. judiciary to not hire Yale protesters as clerks.

I'm willing to bet this email also included language which likely included Yale & schools like Yale (I.e. Harvard, Stanford, etc.)

So, when federal Article III judges have concerns & are voicing them (which is incredibly rare), then decline is probably also being noticed/experienced by law firms that don't want to deal with entitled young attorneys.

We also recently had the leak at the Supreme Court, which has never, ever happened. To get a clerkship at that Supreme Court is the usual Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. I'm sure the Supreme Court is going to be re-evaluating these schools as well.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/conservative-judge-urges-us-judiciary-not-hire-yale-protesters-clerks-2022-03-17/

[Anonymous]

The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol! I don’t think so.

This is the kind of reasoned, logical argument we’ve come to expect from Ivy law grads. I think we can see why they aren’t doing well in the job market.

The ATL rankings have one purpose: to drive traffic to the website. Ivy law grads aren't doing poorly in the job market. Ivies are just filled with rich kids that can chase their conscience and work at Legal Aid straight out of school instead of grinding at the highest-paid job they can find until their loans are more manageable. If someone from Yale is making less than BigLaw market their first year out of school, it is a choice. End of.

I went to a T14 law school but not an Ivy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Yale protest thing is being totally overblown here (and by David L.). I talked to friends that are professors there, and they said it was not a big deal like the press is making it seem.

The Yale students violated academic decorum, nothing more. Completely overblown. The Federalist Society's invited speaker got to speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol! I don’t think so.

This is the kind of reasoned, logical argument we’ve come to expect from Ivy law grads. I think we can see why they aren’t doing well in the job market.

The ATL rankings have one purpose: to drive traffic to the website. Ivy law grads aren't doing poorly in the job market. Ivies are just filled with rich kids that can chase their conscience and work at Legal Aid straight out of school instead of grinding at the highest-paid job they can find until their loans are more manageable. If someone from Yale is making less than BigLaw market their first year out of school, it is a choice. End of.

I went to a T14 law school but not an Ivy.

Hmmmmm not sure I buy that. ATL is usually pretty objective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone is figuring out that Ivies and their professional schools are good but no super special compared to other schools in same tier.

This plus the tier size is larger than some would have everyone believe.