Anyone’s child considering university in England?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

This is exactly correct. In Europe they care about your intellectual ability. In the US it is all about sport, diversity, and money. Sorry.

You sound as if the unis there aren't packed with rich Arabs and Asians who could barely start a conversation in English...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s much harder to get a job in the US if your kid wants to pursue a degree in the UK and wishes to come back to work. Let’s put it that way. If they are of Ivy League caliber, send them to the ivies and not Oxbridge. It will make their life post-graduation much easier.

Grad school is still worth trying out though, if they just want the Oxbridge experience and aren’t really worried about immediate employment or anything.

New poster. Please provide your evidence for the statement in bold above. Actual evidence, not just your personal assumptions. We'll wait....

Pretty simple, UK schools are not target schools for US-based companies/US offices, like consulting, tech, or investment banking. It's much easier to get a job in the US out of an ivy than Oxbridge/LSE/Imperial/UCL or they call "G5" schools especially out of college.

You also see much fewer Oxbridge applicants to top schools like YLS, HBS, etc. Just take a look at their undergrad enrollment data from another thread. Since you put Columbia on the same tier as Oxbridge, it still sends far more people to Yale/Stanford Law, HBS, Stanford GSB than all of Oxbridge combined. They are not known for their professional schools. Even schools at a lower tier like Brown and Dartmouth sent more people into elite US grad schools.

Unless your kids want to work in the UK, then she can apply to their London offices. But salaries will be likely lower than in the US and there's this whole hassle with visa issues.

Also, American universities don't value an UK PhD as much as an US PhD now. You can't get a teaching job just about anywhere in the US with a PhD from the UK.

My spouse has a UK phD and teaching at med school. Good friend also UK PhD, very high at NIH. I won't argue that institutions may value a US PhD more, but the last part of that statement is certainly not true. Also, this thread is about undergrad.

In social sciences, that is true. DS is doing his PhD now and was dissuaded to go to Oxford by his professors. I am not familiar with the field of medical sciences. UK PhDs are viewed less favorably because they are a lot shorter, and therefore the candidates have less research experience, fewer publications, etc.

The publishing comes largely w/ postdocs in lab sciences. My spouse had postdocs in Europe and US before even looking at faculty positions. But, we digress as this is supposed to be about undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

This is exactly correct. In Europe they care about your intellectual ability. In the US it is all about sport, diversity, and money. Sorry.

You have no idea what you're talking about and come off as a dunce.

[Anonymous]

Ok, so, my two cents.

The UK (and European) system are significantly more test based. This shouldn’t shock anyone. The tests aren’t multiple choice, but they are some massive portion of ones grade. I did a year abroad in a UK uni, like a PP. I worked significantly less hard than I did in my US SLAC and finished top of all of my classes — not lying. At least, top 5%. How would I know this? Exam results are (were?) posted on a wall, and people would rush to see the anonymized results.

Testing comes naturally to me. The American style essay and presentation and seminar focused approach instills a deeper kind of learning, IMO, and that can be harder. Does that mean that everyone with a UK degree is less smart than American students? Absolutely not. But one system focuses on memorization and testing and the other on arguing and writing skill.

So, know thyself before you make any decisions. If your child tests poorly, do NOT go to a UK school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

HYPSM

Oxbridge = Columbia/Caltech

Imperial = Penn/Duke/Northwestern/Chicago

UCL/LSE = Cornell/Hopkins/Brown/Dartmouth/UCLA/Berkeley

KCL/Edinburgh/Durham = Rice/WashU/Emory/UMich/Georgetown

St Andrews = UVA/CMU/NYU/Tufts

Rest of the Russell Group = Other state flagships

This is accurate.

DC consistently overrates UCLA and Berkeley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

This is exactly correct. In Europe they care about your intellectual ability. In the US it is all about sport, diversity, and money. Sorry.

You have no idea what you're talking about and come off as a dunce.

NP -I have a kid at Oxford. PP is correct. It’s all gpa and test scores. Oxford doesn’t care about what issues you’ve overcome, diversity, URM, low income or first generation. It wants to know can you do the work. Btw for grad work you can’t even apply unless you have a 3.7 on a 4.0 scale from your US university.

[Anonymous]

Nope

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nope

Provide proof. My kid just went through the application process and got in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, so, my two cents.

The UK (and European) system are significantly more test based. This shouldn’t shock anyone. The tests aren’t multiple choice, but they are some massive portion of ones grade. I did a year abroad in a UK uni, like a PP. I worked significantly less hard than I did in my US SLAC and finished top of all of my classes — not lying. At least, top 5%. How would I know this? Exam results are (were?) posted on a wall, and people would rush to see the anonymized results.

Testing comes naturally to me. The American style essay and presentation and seminar focused approach instills a deeper kind of learning, IMO, and that can be harder. Does that mean that everyone with a UK degree is less smart than American students? Absolutely not. But one system focuses on memorization and testing and the other on arguing and writing skill.

So, know thyself before you make any decisions. If your child tests poorly, do NOT go to a UK school.

I wish you'd found this out before you wasted your time posting. Many of the "tests" in the uk, are essays. For A level - History, English, French, Art History, Philosophy, Politics, ad nauseam - ALL require extensive essay writing under timed, no-book conditions. Universities and how they assess? The same.

[Anonymous]

OMG I am bumping this because trolls hijacked this- My son wants to study in the UK and I would like to hear from people who actually have kids studying there not hear why it sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OMG I am bumping this because trolls hijacked this- My son wants to study in the UK and I would like to hear from people who actually have kids studying there not hear why it sucks.

I went to University in England (I was born there). You are completely treated like a fully responsible adult from the first day. There are no house parents, there are no older students to guide you. You are literally on your own. And you have to remember to hand stuff in - no one will tell you if work is missing, they'll just fail you.

any other questions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

I highly doubt this.

The vast majority of Harvard kids have already aced calculus-based physics, Calculus, advanced chemistry, advanced history/english in high school in addition to the EC stuff they have to juggle. They should have no problems passing any college entrance exams in the world.

A gold medal at a math olympiad can't earn you a place at an engineering school? Which east european university is this selective?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

I highly doubt this.

The vast majority of Harvard kids have already aced calculus-based physics, Calculus, advanced chemistry, advanced history/english in high school in addition to the EC stuff they have to juggle. They should have no problems passing any college entrance exams in the world.

A gold medal at a math olympiad can't earn you a place at an engineering school? Which east european university is this selective?

It's bogus. That person has no idea what s/he's talking about, and simply going off of their weird superiority complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the opposite is also true. I am from Eastern Europe. A vast majority of Harvard kids would not be able to pass entrance exams at any of the schools. They simply do not have the level of knowledge required for entry (and study). If they studied for months, sure, but as they are right now - no way.

You need to understand that expectations from incoming freshmen are entirely different. Nobody cares about your sports or the non profit you started. Even your gold medal at a math Olympiad will not get you a place at an engineering school much less anywhere else. You think your fencing class presidents are so impressive, fine, but that doesn’t translate abroad as much as you think it does.

I highly doubt this.

The vast majority of Harvard kids have already aced calculus-based physics, Calculus, advanced chemistry, advanced history/english in high school in addition to the EC stuff they have to juggle. They should have no problems passing any college entrance exams in the world.

A gold medal at a math olympiad can't earn you a place at an engineering school? Which east european university is this selective?

It's bogus. That person has no idea what s/he's talking about, and simply going off of their weird superiority complex.

It could be true if you're saying you couldn't take a student from the US and drop them in cold to take the exams. Unlike students there, they haven't been pointed to these exams their entire school careers. The US system sets up specific expectations, so people adapt to it. It's like asking a person who plays the violin to audition on a trumpet and then claiming they have no talent. Makes little sense to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would love to hear others’ experience of child going across the pond.

I think a lot of people who send their kids for a bachelor's in the UK have relatives in the UK.

I know people who have sons and daughters who've just started there. I don't have any reports yet on how hard or easy the classes are.

If you don't have relatives there, and you haven't lived there, I think it would be helpful to work with some kind of agency or consulting firm that understood the process, because different countries' college application processes are amazingly different complicated.

The deal with the UK is:

- UK universities often want to see certain types of AP scores, to verify that you have what they think is the equivalent of a good UK high school diploma. If students take the AP tests in the spring of their senior year, the universities will give them provisional admission. Having a provisional status is really stressful. In my opinion, applying to a UK university is great if the student will have the AP test scores required by, say, March or April. Applying to a non-U.S. university that wants AP results is pretty awful if the AP scores are likely to arrive after June. The student may have to set up a whole life in a strange new place... at the very last minute.

- Many UK universities have plenty of dorm space for international students. That's a wonderful thing.

- Most UK universities other than Oxford and Cambridge tap into a fairly simple, straightforward UCAS application process. It's really wonderful, and we here in the United States should be begging the UCAS people to take over the U.S. college and university application process.

- A student who ends up in the UK will need: a UK mobile phone; a UK (or UK-compatible) bank account; and a UK ID. The problem with all of this is that a student might get into a chicken-or-egg situation, where a student needs a UK bank account to get the cell phone, a UK cell phone to get the identity papers, and maybe both UK ID and a cell phone to get the bank account. A great applicant probably doesn't need any kind of consultant to help with the UCAS process, but a student might appreciate the help of a consultant who can help the student get through the phone/bank/ID maze.

- Costs at a typical UK university for a U.S. resident are comparable to the cost of going to some place like the University of Wisconsin out-of-state. Students there can probably get merit aid and student loans of some kinds but may not get the same kind of need-based aid they'd get in the United States. So, UK schools may be better for donut hole families that think paying $40,000 or $50,000 per year is a lot better than paying $75,000 per year for Vassar. Students with less cash may be able to make the math work, too, but they might have harder time.

- The big question is: How will U.S. grad schools really react to applicants with bachelor's degrees from non-U.S. universities and U.S. passports? It's hard to figure that out, because most websites talking about grad school admissions assume that applicants from non-U.S. universities will have language and visa problems. The idea of U.S. citizens coming back to the U.S. with bachelor's degrees from universities in the UK seems to be pretty new.

And the prevailing thought (supported by anecdata) is that American kids who choose to forego U.S. universities to skip on over to the pond do so because they couldn't get into or make it at a comparably elite institution stateside. Think of kids like Caroline Calloway who, after she couldn't cut it at NYU, transferred to Cambridge. More practically speaking, of course U.S. grads would have a leg up over non-U.S. grads if they're gunning for U.S.-based positions.

If you're committed to sending your kid to the UK for college, their best bet is to probably settle down or set up their career over there. They may very well end up wanting to stay there, regardless.

Nonsense. DH and I both graduated from Edinburgh and I went to Harvard Med and he to Harvard Law. We have lots of American friends seeking to send their kids to UK or Irish universities for the experience as well as the high level of classic education.

Sure, sure.

DH went to Edinburgh, Leicester for PhD and Fordham for Law. I realize it's not Harvard, but he's done quite well. In terms of prestige, as it was explained to me it goes:

Oxford and Cambridge
Edinburgh - Durham
St Andrews
etc.

Although that also depends on majors.

DH was waitlisted at Cambridge. His sister got in.