US Supreme Court Rules Against Affirmative Action in College Admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a serious note, can we do fingerprinting for the SAT and all standardized tests? Can we work more on improving the validity of grades?

What does the SAT prove exactly? That a child can take a test, many times prepping for it. Do prepped SAT scores prove anything?

My question was about the cheating that goes on.

Agree, the cheating needs to stop obviously, perhaps have facial recognition. I don’t think that any test which is designed to assesses raw critical thinking skills or analysis should have prep courses or tutors. It’s not a true assessment then.

Certain groups cheat more.
https://campusreform.org/article?id=14951

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have such complicated feelings about this, on one hand I am an Asian (Indian) and in 4-5 years my kids will be entering the ringer of college admissions and sure, we want to get to the best place they can get to according to their abilities. However, being an Asian I am aware that they face greater odds compared to others and that makes me somewhat anxious.

OTOH, Blacks have suffered tremendous trauma in this country, generations of blacks have been exploited and their psychology has been deeply affected by constantly treating them as less than. They do need a leg up, some sort of support to give them a shot at a prosperous life, a way to get into upper ranks of society. We all have our struggles but it is extremely hard to overcome trauma that is left by society treating you as not equal.

I still hope that colleges find a way to accommodate bright black kids from underprivileged backgrounds. I do not support prioritizing black kids from affluent backgrounds.

The fact is that a substantial proportion of the Black students admitted at elite universities are the children of wealthy, well-educated African immigrants--the kids of Ghanaian and Nigerian engineers and doctors. They have not suffered generations of racism in America. If AA is intended to address the legacy of slavery in the US, then the policy should explicitly and exclusively target the descendants of enslaved people in the US.

+100. I think Roberts even asked a hypothetical about this during the oral argument in this case. Instead of a generic “black” box, Harvard could ask “were 50% or more (or whatever required threshold) of your ancestors enslaved in the United States?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have such complicated feelings about this, on one hand I am an Asian (Indian) and in 4-5 years my kids will be entering the ringer of college admissions and sure, we want to get to the best place they can get to according to their abilities. However, being an Asian I am aware that they face greater odds compared to others and that makes me somewhat anxious.

OTOH, Blacks have suffered tremendous trauma in this country, generations of blacks have been exploited and their psychology has been deeply affected by constantly treating them as less than. They do need a leg up, some sort of support to give them a shot at a prosperous life, a way to get into upper ranks of society. We all have our struggles but it is extremely hard to overcome trauma that is left by society treating you as not equal.

I still hope that colleges find a way to accommodate bright black kids from underprivileged backgrounds. I do not support prioritizing black kids from affluent backgrounds.

The fact is that a substantial proportion of the Black students admitted at elite universities are the children of wealthy, well-educated African immigrants--the kids of Ghanaian and Nigerian engineers and doctors. They have not suffered generations of racism in America. If AA is intended to address the legacy of slavery in the US, then the policy should explicitly and exclusively target the descendants of enslaved people in the US.

DP. Diversity and affirmative action may have a lot of overlap, but they are not the same goal.

You need to clarify your terms. Affirmative action is a tool. Diversity is (was) Harvard’s goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The QWEEN has spoken.

From Vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris:

Why the "W" ???

[Anonymous]

Inadvertently, this might end up with MORE brown and black students at Harvard.
Reason, if you look at what happened in the U of Cal system. Qualified black students will avoid schools with few black students. They will gravitate to schools that have more black students. Harvard will have more applications from qualified black students who will pull out of other schools. It might become a mecca of highly qualified black students. I hope so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now we have one essay topic for all the URMs.

Harship from the racism LMFAO

AOs will get sick and tired of reading about it LMAO

It’s really sad. Kids shouldn’t have to expose their pain in an essay.

That is what the essay is for. To help the AOs get to "know" your kid and what they can bring to the school.....HOLISTIC!!

But not exposing pain. Just one sentence in one essay is enough "The reason I made a A- in that one class is because my parents let me be a well rounded kid and allowed me to play team sports, hang out some weekends, go to movies, etc... instead of studying all the time under extreme academic pressure like my Asian friends (who told me what their parents say about people of my race)."

LOL. There's nothing wrong with wanting your children to be well-rounded, but you can't have it all. Don't train them to take it easy on weekends while also giving them the expectation of getting into top universities because there's lots of kids out there working hard 24/7. There's a reason top startups and finance firms hire from top schools: the hours are grueling and not everyone can handle it. There are plenty of good schools and jobs for kids who don't want to be "on" all the time, but don't think "Why can't my child get into Harvard or Duke because I let them have a life."

+1 well said

Except that Harvard and Duke also want children who had a life and also excelled. Not every graduate is going into grueling hours/high paying jobs from these schools--some people want to have social impact, some people want to be a scholar. The schools don't want people who just hyper-focused on markers of achievement (grades, test scores) but rather have a sense of purpose of some sort beyond that. There are plenty of students of all races and backgrounds who reflect this. Sure they have had to work very hard, but it's not all directed at having the highest GPA and SAT scores--that's not the only marker of achievement, purpose and value that the schools care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now we have one essay topic for all the URMs.

Harship from the racism LMFAO

AOs will get sick and tired of reading about it LMAO

It’s really sad. Kids shouldn’t have to expose their pain in an essay.

That is what the essay is for. To help the AOs get to "know" your kid and what they can bring to the school.....HOLISTIC!!

But not exposing pain. Just one sentence in one essay is enough "The reason I made a A- in that one class is because my parents let me be a well rounded kid and allowed me to play team sports, hang out some weekends, go to movies, etc... instead of studying all the time under extreme academic pressure like my Asian friends (who told me what their parents say about people of my race)."

LOL. There's nothing wrong with wanting your children to be well-rounded, but you can't have it all. Don't train them to take it easy on weekends while also giving them the expectation of getting into top universities because there's lots of kids out there working hard 24/7. There's a reason top startups and finance firms hire from top schools: the hours are grueling and not everyone can handle it. There are plenty of good schools and jobs for kids who don't want to be "on" all the time, but don't think "Why can't my child get into Harvard or Duke because I let them have a life."

+1 well said

Except that Harvard and Duke also want children who had a life and also excelled. Not every graduate is going into grueling hours/high paying jobs from these schools--some people want to have social impact, some people want to be a scholar. The schools don't want people who just hyper-focused on markers of achievement (grades, test scores) but rather have a sense of purpose of some sort beyond that. There are plenty of students of all races and backgrounds who reflect this. Sure they have had to work very hard, but it's not all directed at having the highest GPA and SAT scores--that's not the only marker of achievement, purpose and value that the schools care about.

Exactly. Schools like Harvard and Duke aspire to be universities, not academic sweatshops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Inadvertently, this might end up with MORE brown and black students at Harvard.
Reason, if you look at what happened in the U of Cal system. Qualified black students will avoid schools with few black students. They will gravitate to schools that have more black students. Harvard will have more applications from qualified black students who will pull out of other schools. It might become a mecca of highly qualified black students. I hope so.

If that’s the result, so be it! If ending AA HELPS Blacks getting admitted, good! Universities, governments and big corporations have been playing the race card against Asian-Americans for too long.

[Anonymous]

While it looks like Asian-Americans, especially Chinese-Americans, took the side of Republican white nationalist authoritarianism here, it's important to keep in mind that many Asian-American student organizations objected to being exploited by the Republican fascists. These young Asian-Americans are allies of people of color and are as disgusted as everyone else by today's evidence of Republican white supremacist backlash.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a serious note, can we do fingerprinting for the SAT and all standardized tests? Can we work more on improving the validity of grades?

What does the SAT prove exactly? That a child can take a test, many times prepping for it. Do prepped SAT scores prove anything?

Probably need a separate thread but I think the SAT is valuable assessment of fundamental logic and reasoning skills.

Oh does it?

yes it is.

Of course it does. But even if you disagree with that, surely you agree that the ability to study for and do well on a high stakes test, even on underwater basket weaving, has to be a proxy for motivation and basic competence if nothing else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Funny how people are missing the fact that AA largely benefits WHITE WOMEN.

This is true.

As if race and sex for white women is not taken into consideration seems to be the idea a lot of white people have.

white women are the biggest beneficiaries for affirmative action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have such complicated feelings about this, on one hand I am an Asian (Indian) and in 4-5 years my kids will be entering the ringer of college admissions and sure, we want to get to the best place they can get to according to their abilities. However, being an Asian I am aware that they face greater odds compared to others and that makes me somewhat anxious.

OTOH, Blacks have suffered tremendous trauma in this country, generations of blacks have been exploited and their psychology has been deeply affected by constantly treating them as less than. They do need a leg up, some sort of support to give them a shot at a prosperous life, a way to get into upper ranks of society. We all have our struggles but it is extremely hard to overcome trauma that is left by society treating you as not equal.

I still hope that colleges find a way to accommodate bright black kids from underprivileged backgrounds. I do not support prioritizing black kids from affluent backgrounds.

The fact is that a substantial proportion of the Black students admitted at elite universities are the children of wealthy, well-educated African immigrants--the kids of Ghanaian and Nigerian engineers and doctors. They have not suffered generations of racism in America. If AA is intended to address the legacy of slavery in the US, then the policy should explicitly and exclusively target the descendants of enslaved people in the US.

+100. I think Roberts even asked a hypothetical about this during the oral argument in this case. Instead of a generic “black” box, Harvard could ask “were 50% or more (or whatever required threshold) of your ancestors enslaved in the United States?”

I think there should be preferential treatment for African Descendants of Slaves in the US as well as for Native Americans due to US history. I think few can argue that other races/genders have experienced the same severity of historical mistreatment that has persisted throughout US history. Besides that, everyone should be considered on their own merits and what they can add to the college community--and that the schools can have latitude in what they see as merit--whether it is rigorous coursework, well-rounded activities, artistic merit, entrepreneurship, SAT scores, GPA, quality of writing etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have such complicated feelings about this, on one hand I am an Asian (Indian) and in 4-5 years my kids will be entering the ringer of college admissions and sure, we want to get to the best place they can get to according to their abilities. However, being an Asian I am aware that they face greater odds compared to others and that makes me somewhat anxious.

OTOH, Blacks have suffered tremendous trauma in this country, generations of blacks have been exploited and their psychology has been deeply affected by constantly treating them as less than. They do need a leg up, some sort of support to give them a shot at a prosperous life, a way to get into upper ranks of society. We all have our struggles but it is extremely hard to overcome trauma that is left by society treating you as not equal.

I still hope that colleges find a way to accommodate bright black kids from underprivileged backgrounds. I do not support prioritizing black kids from affluent backgrounds.

The fact is that a substantial proportion of the Black students admitted at elite universities are the children of wealthy, well-educated African immigrants--the kids of Ghanaian and Nigerian engineers and doctors. They have not suffered generations of racism in America. If AA is intended to address the legacy of slavery in the US, then the policy should explicitly and exclusively target the descendants of enslaved people in the US.

+100. I think Roberts even asked a hypothetical about this during the oral argument in this case. Instead of a generic “black” box, Harvard could ask “were 50% or more (or whatever required threshold) of your ancestors enslaved in the United States?”

Africans have higher test scores. In fact studies show African immigrant test score were 90%+ of white students. So affirmative action will not affect them as much as you think. From a diverse standpoint Africans can talk about their culture in their essays, giving them an edge over white students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now we have one essay topic for all the URMs.

Harship from the racism LMFAO

AOs will get sick and tired of reading about it LMAO

It’s really sad. Kids shouldn’t have to expose their pain in an essay.

That is what the essay is for. To help the AOs get to "know" your kid and what they can bring to the school.....HOLISTIC!!

But not exposing pain. Just one sentence in one essay is enough "The reason I made a A- in that one class is because my parents let me be a well rounded kid and allowed me to play team sports, hang out some weekends, go to movies, etc... instead of studying all the time under extreme academic pressure like my Asian friends (who told me what their parents say about people of my race)."

LOL. There's nothing wrong with wanting your children to be well-rounded, but you can't have it all. Don't train them to take it easy on weekends while also giving them the expectation of getting into top universities because there's lots of kids out there working hard 24/7. There's a reason top startups and finance firms hire from top schools: the hours are grueling and not everyone can handle it. There are plenty of good schools and jobs for kids who don't want to be "on" all the time, but don't think "Why can't my child get into Harvard or Duke because I let them have a life."

+1 well said

Except that Harvard and Duke also want children who had a life and also excelled. Not every graduate is going into grueling hours/high paying jobs from these schools--some people want to have social impact, some people want to be a scholar. The schools don't want people who just hyper-focused on markers of achievement (grades, test scores) but rather have a sense of purpose of some sort beyond that. There are plenty of students of all races and backgrounds who reflect this. Sure they have had to work very hard, but it's not all directed at having the highest GPA and SAT scores--that's not the only marker of achievement, purpose and value that the schools care about.

Exactly. Schools like Harvard and Duke aspire to be universities, not academic sweatshops.

Education is being turned into a competition, a game. It’s not a game, we aren’t all robots cramming, trying to achieve the highest scores. What does that prove exactly? Most people with average IQs are fully capable of equal achievement, some are just pushed at a younger age by parents, some mature later and find success on their own. We have become ruthless, doing whatever it takes to ‘win’. Although some of us missed the memo and are lagging behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My impression is that this decision means:

Race cannot be an objective factor in the college admissions process, but it can be a subjective factor.

It has always been subjective factor.
They can't use it anymore.

Not exactly, the court ruling doesn't shoot down that colleges cannot be influenced by the impact that race has had on an individual. Therefore, if in an essay a student can explain how racism has shaped their access, experiences, motivations, admissions officers can take that into account. Likewise if a LoR letter highlights how a student has experienced racism yet prevailed etc. that can also be used.
I've seen some college admissions officers say that this decision will likely expand admissions based on the experiences of racism resulting in an even more diverse campus. I think this will open up some of the diversity issues within the Asian American and Hispanic groups in the US too--they can make a case through essays about their experiences of racism. This may give the colleges even more leeway to create diverse classes. I guess we'll see. My guess is that large public school systems that don't use essays signficantly in admissions might become less diverse, but elite private schools might become even more diverse.

Racial discrimination is one of the social hardships among many.
Asian students experiene that too.

If the school systematically give more points to Blacks studetns racial discrimination harship, say hello to flood of lawsuits.

Nope, because the new criteria is the subjective experience of racism and how it has challenged access to academics (that the student has still succeeded against). It's a lot harder to make a case that Asian Americans experience similar levels and types of racism that challenge their academic pursuits. This decision just made it a lot harder for lawsuits against race-based admissions IMO because it relies on an interpretation of the 14th amendment to be about racism rather than race.

First, AOs gave higher points to Asiasn on pretty much everything including ECs, leadership, etc. I'm sure higher points on essays.
It was at the committee level that created racist category and gave negative points to Asians.
What will the committee tell the under paid AOs now? You better be very careful.

Second, it would be equally hard to make a case for the middle class and above Blacks whining about hardship from anything including racism.
Good luck finding lots of qualified students from the hood.
I can see the graduation rate and overall quality of schools gradually going down.

Why? There are many accounts of UMC Blacks being excessively stopped by cops, being treated suspiciously when they shop, when they are walking around in their UMC neighborhood.

exactly. the person you’re responding to is an idiot.