Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Look what you made me do isn’t about a lover…it’s about Kanye West!

If you think all her songs are about lovers you’re missing the point.

Check out the podcast on The Daily recently on Taylor, you might understand her and the songs better!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

One is older and has had more time to age like a fine wine. The other is in her prime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

Oh man, you’re even more psycho then I thought

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

Oh man, you’re even more psycho then I thought

You asked what the difference was between the two. When you got an answer you didn’t like, you turned to unqualified, unsubstantiated insults. What does that say about you?

Maybe you should reflect on that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Look what you made me do isn’t about a lover…it’s about Kanye West!

If you think all her songs are about lovers you’re missing the point.

Check out the podcast on The Daily recently on Taylor, you might understand her and the songs better!

It is about revenge not letting go and getting stuck in someone who wronged you- no not love but revenge and inability to let go is one of Taylor’s most loved themes.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:

(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."

When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.

It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.

I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.

I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.

I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.

You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior

Getting revenge on a lover is not ok

Stalking a lover is not ok

End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way

Romeo and Juliet died

Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.

I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!

Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.

DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.

But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.

I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.

But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.

I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.

Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.

Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!

Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).

One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.

I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.

I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.

What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.

If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.

Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.

I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.

As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.

Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.

New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.

[Anonymous]

NP. Debbie Harry has about 5 much more iconic simply better songs than any Swifty song. Songs that stand the test of time and almost everybody recognizes and even know the words to.

[Anonymous]

HG tudor says she's an aware narc. She's dangerous