Disappointment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we learn from this thread:
1. Half of DCUM are realists.
2. The other half are not. They believe they have Ivies/JHU/CMU/UNC oos in the bag. They believe their kids are special and cannot fathom why Princeton would not admit them. They don't understand that if they apply to 10 schools/program where the admit rate is 4%, then the probability of getting admitted to "at least one" is still only 33.5%. i e., there is a 72.5% CHANCE OF GETTIGNG REJECTED FROM ALL OF THEM. Then they get angry with those pointing out facts and want to key their Teslas.

+1

However, the admit rate is still basically 4% even if you apply to 15+. They are all separate events and have no impact on the other. It's not 33.5%.

But yes, half are not realistic and do not understand basic math/statistics.

Gosh ... You are the one lacks basic understanding on math/statistics!

Assuming they are all independent separate events, the probability of receiving at least one acceptance is 33% if you apply to 10 colleges each with 4% admit rate.

You need a remedial math class.

DP - You need a remedial college admissions class.

Acceptance rate /= any individual applicant’s chances. That’s a number you have no way of knowing, which is why game theory cannot be applied in this process.

it’s not a deck of cards or a pair of dice. Even if your math is correct, if the input numbers are unknown the calculation has no value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.

You are confused. You do not know where my student applied. Right?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

Apparently you are not in a district where kids can self select to take AP/ Honors courses, or you would understand that yes this does exactly happen in many courses.

who cares if kids can self select. As long as the workload and expectations are communicated, and the course is not diluted, why should anyone care if some kid wants to stand and deliver?

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read the 45 pages.

DD is a junior at VT in engineering. Roommate since freshman year (now off campus at apt) is in biomedical engineering. It is extremely rigorous. She loves her program as does DD.

VT is worth a visit. DD was also accepted to W and M but fell in love with VT on the visit.

W&M was a 3+2 program for engineering when DD graduated in 22. Don’t know if same now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.

You are confused. You do not know where my student applied. Right?

You started out by writing: “We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.”

Doesn’t sound like you applied to VCU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.

You are confused. You do not know where my student applied. Right?

You started out by writing: “We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.”

Doesn’t sound like you applied to VCU.

So you don’t know where my kid applied? Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.

You are confused. You do not know where my student applied. Right?

You started out by writing: “We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.”

Doesn’t sound like you applied to VCU.

So you don’t know where my kid applied? Right?

What are you trying to prove? You asked DCUM for clarity about college admissions. DCUM responded that admissions is only unclear for about 40 schools. Now you’re angry, protesting that we can’t possibly know your kid applied to one of those schools. Well ok then, but if your kid isn’t applying to one of those schools why are you asking for clarity about how to get accepted to one of those schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.

You are confused. You do not know where my student applied. Right?

You started out by writing: “We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.”

Doesn’t sound like you applied to VCU.

So you don’t know where my kid applied? Right?

What are you trying to prove? You asked DCUM for clarity about college admissions. DCUM responded that admissions is only unclear for about 40 schools. Now you’re angry, protesting that we can’t possibly know your kid applied to one of those schools. Well ok then, but if your kid isn’t applying to one of those schools why are you asking for clarity about how to get accepted to one of those schools?

Because you are insisting that my student applied “to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs” and is “clamoring” for “exclusivity.” This is far from the case and yes, even for schools outside your exclusive 40, the process is far from clear.

But bottom line is you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

Shows what you (don’t) know about the current state of AP and honors in public HSs in the area.

Considering I have two (2) students currently in high school AP and honors classes in public HS (FCPS), I know quite a bit about their current state, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

From an actual APUSH teacher in an open enrollment high school classroom, not elementary:

Any attempt to have reading or proper homework assignments done is typically met with massive failures. Because of this, I can't get through material as fast as I would like, and we only get up to barely talking about the Cold War when it's already exam time.

Do you really think that kids who can’t keep up aren’t going to affect teacher workload and the pace of the class, especially if there are several of these kids in the class? Pressure on the teacher from admin and parents can be brutal.

Sorry, who are you quoting? Citation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

From an actual APUSH teacher in an open enrollment high school classroom, not elementary:

Any attempt to have reading or proper homework assignments done is typically met with massive failures. Because of this, I can't get through material as fast as I would like, and we only get up to barely talking about the Cold War when it's already exam time.

Do you really think that kids who can’t keep up aren’t going to affect teacher workload and the pace of the class, especially if there are several of these kids in the class? Pressure on the teacher from admin and parents can be brutal.

it sounds like most or all of the class is not prepared or willing to put in the effort. If it is just a handful of kids, you give them the grades they deserve and hope they get the message

+1
My kids' AP teachers don't slow down the class for anyone. You either keep up or you get a bad grade and learn from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I went to an event at my daughter’s school last night. I was talking to some parents about how strange it will be for our kids to be heading off to college in a few months. The discussion then transitions to summer vacations plans etc. I leave the group to chat with someone else. Apparently, one of the parent’s starts trashing my kid. I was told this by a close friend who heard the conversation. She was angry about my kid getting into a top 10 school that her kid was rejected from. The parent spewed out all amazing things her kid did. There was no way my kid could match that. How would this parent have any idea about my kid’s qualifications? Initially, I was angry but in the end I felt sorry for this person. I’m glad the school year is almost over. Something that should be exciting has become toxic.

You've just described the vast majority of parents on this forum. They *actually* think they know all the details about OTHER people's kids - their GPAs, test scores, ECs, etc. The hubris is astounding but so satisfying when someone like your kid does very well and they can't stand it. Happened to us too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

This will never happen. And can’t. Ok, Princeton says, “You must have perfect SATs, at least 7 APs with 5, sports captain, 4.0. …” that still leaves more candidates than first-year seats.

And eliminate so many others who bring other things to a campus.

and that is why Harvard has remedial math classes

Harvard has remedial math classes because kids were pushed through math too fast, too young, and lack the basics. Remedial math is for students who arrive thinking they are far ahead in math, but actually can't pass the placement test. They are finding that 'foundational' skills are lacking -- basic algebra and geometry. Every kid admitted took those courses, but too many took them in middle school and learned/retained nothing.

+1
Which is why insisting all kids take Algebra by 8th grade, or advanced math in 6th grade is ridiculous. Many need more time to master the basics and there is no shame in that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Because teachers have to teach to the class, and if a group is struggling, they often focus on helping those kids, and that means a different class structure. My kids take AP courses/Honors courses to avoid "the general population"

And with that last sentence, you have shown your true colors, and those of your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

Apparently you are not in a district where kids can self select to take AP/ Honors courses, or you would understand that yes this does exactly happen in many courses.

Sigh. I've already explained this twice. My kids are in FCPS where they can self-select into AP/Honors. The teachers in those classes do NOT slow down for anyone. If you're taking their class, you're expected to put in the work. If you aren't doing the work - or it's too much for you - the teacher will suggest dropping down a level. This happens all the time.