Disappointment

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

Apparently you are not in a district where kids can self select to take AP/ Honors courses, or you would understand that yes this does exactly happen in many courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What we learn from this thread:
1. Half of DCUM are realists.
2. The other half are not. They believe they have Ivies/JHU/CMU/UNC oos in the bag. They believe their kids are special and cannot fathom why Princeton would not admit them. They don't understand that if they apply to 10 schools/program where the admit rate is 4%, then the probability of getting admitted to "at least one" is still only 33.5%. i e., there is a 72.5% CHANCE OF GETTIGNG REJECTED FROM ALL OF THEM. Then they get angry with those pointing out facts and want to key their Teslas.

+1

However, the admit rate is still basically 4% even if you apply to 15+. They are all separate events and have no impact on the other. It's not 33.5%.

But yes, half are not realistic and do not understand basic math/statistics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

Hidden? Not.

Hidden to the uninformed. Asian parents often only recognize top 20 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The OP is right to be disappointed, people should not pile on her so gratuitously.

Taking 14 APs puts her child in the top 5000 in the nation, likely top 100-1000 because she scored all 5s in the exams.

SAT 1570 is top 1%, maybe not as impressive but at least it checks the box.

No major red flags for the GPA since it was 4.0

I wouldn’t say admission to a selective school was in the bag, but she was competitive. Extracurriculars were not that notable but still, absent major red flags in the application it should have resulted in admissions to a more selective college. That doesn’t mean other kids were not deserving.

I agree it’s not the end of the world and the OP and her child should move on and do her best at the college she’s in.

No the OP is not "right to be disappointed". Her DD was rejected for 10+ "highly rejective schools", where yes her kid has the lottery ticket for stats (GPA/SAT), but so do 30-40K students applying to each of those schools. Her 1580 is no different than a kid with 1520 in the eyes of most T25 schools. You checked the box, got your lottery ticket, now let's move to the next part and see what else you can offer compared to everyone else. In the end even if you still have your lottery ticket, you can still expect to be rejected 90%+ of the time.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I smell a 🧌

Do you think her profile is too "basic"? She says she regrets not picking more creative ECs, although I think her ECs were perfectly suited for her major + demonstrated her passion.

Yeah, I agree there is nothing that stands out in her ECs.

ECs:
not impressive: - A few regional awards (STEM)
Actually good: - 200+ volunteer hours @ local hospital
everyone has one: - Founder of non-profit
this year AOs don't like research for some reason: - Research w/ prof at T30
everyone has one: - Competitive summer program for BME
everyone has this: - Lots of community service

This year I heard Stanford retracted an acceptance because the applicant lied about volunteer hours.
Are those 200 volunteer hours @ local hospital registered with the school?

Yes, she made sure that everything was registered. I'm assuming the more "basic" ECs were the factor harming her application?

No, it's just a bizarre system that makes kids do these things. In other countries kids don't have to do these admissions acrobatics.

No, other countries instead track kids around age 11/12 (or earlier). You are tracked at this age, based on a one day test. Do well, you can be on tract for pre-med/stem/engineering. Do okay, and you can focus on humanities and social sciences (non stem), do worse, and you won't be tracked for much college at all. And without $$$$$$ it is damn near impossible to get off those tracks.
So yeah, I 1000% prefer what we have, where a kid can grow academically after 5th/6th grade and still decide to be an engineer or a doctor after age 12.

Nah. You can pretty much tell where a kid should be by the end of 6th grade. Pretending that kids can “grow” after that is a waste of everyone’s time and of public resources.

This is so un-American!
I am an immigrant from Asia. What attracts us so much about America is precisely that, as long as you work hard, you always have another opportunity.
Tiger parents often pushed kids hard in their childhood, then the kids lost motivation once they left home.

America doesn’t do everything right. The education system is a perfect example of this! It is a huge waste of time, money, and effort to try and get every kid to go to college. Many kids should be put on a vocational track in high school, as many countries do.

Could not agree more. Open enrollment in Honors and AP classes at our public HS has been an unmitigated disaster for the kids who actually deserve to be there. Tons of kids are literally flunking. It should not even be possible to flunk an AP class. It means someone screwed up somewhere.

Yes, I agree open enrollment into AP courses should not be allowed. Kids should be required to at minimum get a B or better in the honors/honor equivalent course the prior year or an B+ or better in a regular course. But many do allow open enrollment because it means less work for the overworked staff and teachers, it means they don't have to deal with nasty pushy parents who want "my kid belongs in AP X or Honors X, I don't care that they got a C in regular X this year" This way with open enrollment, any failures are totally on the parents/student.

DP. I completely disagree. How does someone else's kid potentially doing badly in an AP affect you or your kid? EVERY student should have the opportunity to excel, and most do. And if they do badly or fail, then it is indeed on them/their parents - no one else is affected.

Except the rest of the students in an AP class where the teacher is spending way too much time trying to help those failing kids. What a waste of everyone’s time, including the kids who could be learning a lot more in a class appropriate for their level.

That doesn't happen in high school. In AP classes, all kids are expected to keep up. If they don't, the teacher will counsel them to drop down a level. What you're describing is an elementary school situation.

From an actual APUSH teacher in an open enrollment high school classroom, not elementary:

Any attempt to have reading or proper homework assignments done is typically met with massive failures. Because of this, I can't get through material as fast as I would like, and we only get up to barely talking about the Cold War when it's already exam time.

Do you really think that kids who can’t keep up aren’t going to affect teacher workload and the pace of the class, especially if there are several of these kids in the class? Pressure on the teacher from admin and parents can be brutal.

it sounds like most or all of the class is not prepared or willing to put in the effort. If it is just a handful of kids, you give them the grades they deserve and hope they get the message

Have you been a teacher in public schools for the past 10years+? Do you know how crazy parents can be, and how the admin typically tries to appease them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

Even when they have 30K+ qualified kids for 1500 spots, yes they will still reject the vast majority. There are more qualified students than spots at T25 schools. Smart people recognize that and will ensure they find the right ones in the 30-70 range that their kid likes and will excel at

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we learn from this thread:
1. Half of DCUM are realists.
2. The other half are not. They believe they have Ivies/JHU/CMU/UNC oos in the bag. They believe their kids are special and cannot fathom why Princeton would not admit them. They don't understand that if they apply to 10 schools/program where the admit rate is 4%, then the probability of getting admitted to "at least one" is still only 33.5%. i e., there is a 72.5% CHANCE OF GETTIGNG REJECTED FROM ALL OF THEM. Then they get angry with those pointing out facts and want to key their Teslas.

+1

However, the admit rate is still basically 4% even if you apply to 15+. They are all separate events and have no impact on the other. It's not 33.5%.

But yes, half are not realistic and do not understand basic math/statistics.

Gosh ... You are the one lacks basic understanding on math/statistics!

Assuming they are all independent separate events, the probability of receiving at least one acceptance is 33% if you apply to 10 colleges each with 4% admit rate.

You need a remedial math class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

No you’re not seeking clarity. I know you’re not, because there are plenty of schools offering clarity. But you don’t want “those schools.” You think those schools aren’t good enough for your kid. Say what you want, your revealed preference is for exclusivity.

Sorry, have we met? No, we haven’t so pretending to know me is idiotic.

My student applied widely to a good mix of schools. It would have cut down on the workload and the anxiety if there were clearer guidelines about what schools want.

You being hung up on exclusivity doesn’t mean everyone is.

There is clear guidelines. But that doesn't change that they will still need to reject 85-90% of highly qualified students as that's all they have space for

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

No you’re not seeking clarity. I know you’re not, because there are plenty of schools offering clarity. But you don’t want “those schools.” You think those schools aren’t good enough for your kid. Say what you want, your revealed preference is for exclusivity.

If a flagship state U can no longer be considered a safety for top stats kids, then no, there are not plenty of schools offering clarity.

No, you apply to the other state schools (you have 12+ more excellent schools). There is plenty of space for a kid in VA to attend a state U. But the "Flagship UVA" has only 4-5K spots each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public or Private HS?

These items are a dime a dozen and not needed. Ie mean nothing on an application.
Founder of non-profit
- Research w/ prof at T30
- Competitive summer program for BME
- Lots of community service

Regional Stem awards got her into the schools she was accepted at and her stats. Most of those schools are data schools ie SAT/GPA.

I am sorry OP but honestly your kid got in where they should be going. They will do well at any of their choices.

Pitt is the place they belong or VT.

You did not prepare your kid to be realistic

So the kids who got in to the higher ranked schools with lesser stats are not going where they should be going? I mean, if OP's kid isn't qualified....

Tens of thousands of kids are "qualified" to attend these schools, but only hundreds will get in each year. That's life. Luckily, there are hundreds of excellent college where all the other highly qualified kids will get fabulous educations surrounded by all the other highly qualified kids who didn't win the lottery that year.

There is no good reason to be obsessed with a handful of schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we learn from this thread:
1. Half of DCUM are realists.
2. The other half are not. They believe they have Ivies/JHU/CMU/UNC oos in the bag. They believe their kids are special and cannot fathom why Princeton would not admit them. They don't understand that if they apply to 10 schools/program where the admit rate is 4%, then the probability of getting admitted to "at least one" is still only 33.5%. i e., there is a 72.5% CHANCE OF GETTIGNG REJECTED FROM ALL OF THEM. Then they get angry with those pointing out facts and want to key their Teslas.

+1

However, the admit rate is still basically 4% even if you apply to 15+. They are all separate events and have no impact on the other. It's not 33.5%.

But yes, half are not realistic and do not understand basic math/statistics.

Gosh ... You are the one lacks basic understanding on math/statistics!

Assuming they are all independent separate events, the probability of receiving at least one acceptance is 33% if you apply to 10 colleges each with 4% admit rate.

You need a remedial math class.

DP. I think PP was suggesting that is not actually the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

What are you talking about? Top 75 university founded in the mid-1800s with 20k applications a year and a 25% acceptance rate.

When it comes to estimating a school’s overall quality,
I still don’t get why the acceptance % is relevant. If it checks all your boxes, what difference does it make how many other people like it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What we learn from this thread:
1. Half of DCUM are realists.
2. The other half are not. They believe they have Ivies/JHU/CMU/UNC oos in the bag. They believe their kids are special and cannot fathom why Princeton would not admit them. They don't understand that if they apply to 10 schools/program where the admit rate is 4%, then the probability of getting admitted to "at least one" is still only 33.5%. i e., there is a 72.5% CHANCE OF GETTIGNG REJECTED FROM ALL OF THEM. Then they get angry with those pointing out facts and want to key their Teslas.

+1

However, the admit rate is still basically 4% even if you apply to 15+. They are all separate events and have no impact on the other. It's not 33.5%.

But yes, half are not realistic and do not understand basic math/statistics.

Gosh ... You are the one lacks basic understanding on math/statistics!

Assuming they are all independent separate events, the probability of receiving at least one acceptance is 33% if you apply to 10 colleges each with 4% admit rate.

You need a remedial math class.

I'm sorry but that is not how college admissions work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lehigh is a hidden gem, particularly if you could get financial aid from Lehigh.

Hidden? Not.

Hidden to the uninformed. Asian parents often only recognize top 20 schools.

That's part of the problem when their kid is rejected or waitlisted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Class ‘24 parent her. This thread has generated so many comments because it taps into a lot of our anxieties, stress, confusion and frustration over a process that unfortunately, is too intertwined with our personal/collective insecurities and aspirations. Many of us can relate to this thread because we all know someone or know of someone who “had high stats and did all the right things” and was still rejected at a lot of top schools. The problem isn’t going to get fixed with Supreme Court decisions, SAT tutors or high priced college counselors. It has to start at the parent level. We parents created the market for this craziness by paying for Kumon, elite sports camps, private college counselors, pay-to-play programs. Kids are jumping through all these hoops because we as parents have certain hopes and aspirations for them. I’m glad I was warned early on that my high stats kid was likely to be rejected by T-25 schools. It’s not the easiest pill to swallow for many of us who were easily accepted into these same top schools with B’s, limited extracurricular involvement, and few AP’s (and no non-profits or research back then!). However, being warned before hand was a blessing because it forced me to recalibrate expectations early on and focus more on fit and admissibility over prestige for my kid. Another great thing was seeing the examples set by top students from our local area who showed little or no interest in T-25 or WASP schools. They opted for our state flagship, service academies, less selective schools with prestigious niche programs, etc. There’s a big world of opportunity out there, and maybe if we parents start placing less importance on prestige schools and stop feeding the market for them, for this madness might abate.

These posts always get me to chuckle. You are just trying to get other parents to give up in order to give your kid an edge

The colleges created this problem by having opaque admissions with moving targets. They can fix it by laying out exact criteria for students to meet in order to gain acceptance.

Any school that laid out exact criteria would wind up accepting more than 25% of applicants, and that would make the school seem undesirable to the status-obsessed parents, thus reducing the number of “elite” schools they’re all so desperate to get their kids into and making the problem even worse.

the acceptance rate is distorted because kids apply to 10-20 schools. If colleges were more transparent and honest about what they were looking for , kids wouldn't need to apply to more than 3-5 schools.

But why would colleges all go along with your plan? Rich people and people with college savings are not clamoring for clarity. They might be grumbling about a lack of clarity, but what they’re clamoring for is exclusivity. The market is giving them what they want.

We have saved for our kids’ college all their lives. We’d like some clarity, pls. The system is dysfunctional.

Clarity is easy to find. Just stop chasing the same 30 Universities and 10 SLACS and you'll be fine.

Your talking nonsense. Unless you know where our child applied. Do you?

No, you don’t.

Now you are really just sounding whack. I don't know or need to know where your children applied. If you want better admissions clarity do not apply to the same 30 or so colleges and 10 or so SLACs which are discussed and argued over ad nauseum here on DCUM. If you get outside of the bubble of those schools clarity is significantly easier to find. If you really want clarity drop down another 10 on the USNWR list for National Universities and below the T20 SLACs. beyond those lines admissions typically becomes significantly clearer.

If you want to apply to the first groups of schools just give it up because you aren't going to get close to what you want given the sub 20% admissions rates for all of them and sub 10% admissions rates for many of them.