SFFA doesn't like the Asian American %

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wonder how people would feel if admissions was largely based on SAT score and this resulted in classes at top schools heavily skewed towards men and mem are significantly more likely to score higher on the SAT than women

As overall students, women are better than men, and it’d be interesting to see what these colleges’ classes would look like if they stopped their 50/50 gender policies and went blind.

STEM (except stuff that can get you into medical school) would be vastly more male, most other majors would be vastly more female.

Which is a cultural issue that should be fixed, not an admissions one. Many other countries have women more represented in all stem subjects, so it comes down to understanding why there’s such a massive gap in the US, and why our standardized exam results in women with worse scores across the board

There are a lot of people who believe the only way to solve the cultural issue is via admissions. Because essentially until you get more women in stem fields it is hard to attract women to stem fields. If you think there are other better ways go ahead and propose them but you better bring evidence-based arguments in their favor not just "shrug that's a cultural problem that should not be addressed via program or college admissions."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wonder how people would feel if admissions was largely based on SAT score and this resulted in classes at top schools heavily skewed towards men and mem are significantly more likely to score higher on the SAT than women

As overall students, women are better than men, and it’d be interesting to see what these colleges’ classes would look like if they stopped their 50/50 gender policies and went blind.

STEM (except stuff that can get you into medical school) would be vastly more male, most other majors would be vastly more female.

Which is a cultural issue that should be fixed, not an admissions one. Many other countries have women more represented in all stem subjects, so it comes down to understanding why there’s such a massive gap in the US, and why our standardized exam results in women with worse scores across the board

There are a lot of people who believe the only way to solve the cultural issue is via admissions. Because essentially until you get more women in stem fields it is hard to attract women to stem fields. If you think there are other better ways go ahead and propose them but you better bring evidence-based arguments in their favor not just "shrug that's a cultural problem that should not be addressed via program or college admissions."

But chemistry and biology weren’t always majority women. In fact, no degree was majority women for most of American collegiate history. Representation matters, and those women are there and will be there even without an admissions boost.

Unlike black representation, women are 50% of the population, and it’s incredibly difficult to find a collegiate space with 0 women of any cultural background unless it’s specifically a fraternity. Something is happening in our k-12 schools that is discouraging women from taking on stem degrees that they likely will excel in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two potential solutions:

1. SCOTUS justices serve as the admissions panel for the top 10 schools

2. Top universities spell out the numerical metrics they will consider — e.g. test scores, grade point averages, etc. Each school pools together all the top applicants who rank highest on all the criteria collectively. Because that will still bring them more applicants than they can admit, each school identifies those they will offer admission from the pool via lottery. No consideration given to race, legacy status, geography, sport ability, etc. This is really the only completely fair and neutral way to do it.

For the 5 millionth time. Americans generally do not WANT a numbers only admission process like other countries have.

And of course it is relevant if a kid plays sports or does other time consuming ECs. Presumably if all the did was focus on grades those grades would be a bit higher. So an A- average but a busy EC schedule still shows a very accomplished kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

Asians are also better in leadership, ECs, interviews, etc., hence strong suspicion about racial discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Again, above a certain threshold, schools are allowed to differentiate in other ways like geography, first-generation college status, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

Asians are also better in leadership, ECs, interviews, etc., hence strong suspicion about racial discrimination.

This is based on...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:neutral way

Where in the Equal Protection Clause or the Supreme Court's decision does it say that complete neutrality is required in every aspect of admissions decisions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

Asians are also better in leadership, ECs, interviews, etc., hence strong suspicion about racial discrimination.

Ummm. I'm Asian and I don't know what kind of weird stereotyping you are making here???

[Anonymous]

who cares guys,
get a life....

you people are pretty 1-dimensional as evidenced by this post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:who cares guys,
get a life....

you people are pretty 1-dimensional as evidenced by this post.

LOL nailed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

A score of 700 on each section of the SAT is enough to do predictably well at the best schools, assuming a solid high GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

imagine if they do a forced testimony post lawsuit and send a random sample of 100 applicants race blind to these admissions officers and see the results. would not shock me if it ends up being 98% white and asian. that is reality. deal with it. no more hand outs

WTF? Wanting a class of students from different backgrounds isn’t a “handout”.

Your ignorance about US colleges is showing.

If you are choosing people to create racial diversity then it is illegal. It is racial discrimination and it is illegal.

This. You should not receive a benefit for the color of your skin. Simple as that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

Asian culture is not to make excuses and blame others, but they'll probably start doing that adopting to the American culture.

Well American universities reflect American culture and values. If AAPI kids in the US would prefer an Asian cultural experience in college they are welcome to apply to universities in Asia which will not care at all about their experiences with racism or how coaching Little League taught them empathy or whatever.

I wonder why more students don't just do this if they prefer a purely objective application process.

Because Asians in America are American you fkin moron. Most likely speak English better than you and most definitely do schooling better than you (and most don't speak a foreign language to any proficiency to go to school in a foreign country). Fkin racist. Culture is not nationality and Asian Americans do not hold allegiance to foreign states.

PP be sure to tell the other POC where to go back to school to enjoy their "culture." Like the country of "Central America," the country of the "Middle East," and the country of "Africa," right???

Asian American students are doing just fine. In California. The full pay Asian foreigners are the ones going to the Ivies and such. That's why they loooooove the standardized tests: it's part of the country wide testing culture.

Stop being racist. Asian Americans in California are not doing fine. By whose metric? Some are going to highly selective schools. There are a large number of Asian Americans in California being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their test scores are somehow not good enough, yet much higher than other kids who got in through "holistic" measures.

There are also a lot of not-Asian kids being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their very high test scores are not what those universities want.

Not really.
There are almost no black students with 1500+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20, probably T10
There are almost no hispanic students with 1550+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20
There are a ton of asians students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20
There are a ton of white students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20

Can you back up your claims? Show us the data. I’m not going to hold my breath because you can’t. Period.

Here's the thing, my side is the ONLY side that has provided any studies or data. All you have to contribute is outrage and butthurt.
The high scoring black students barely exist.
The high scoring hispanics are not much more common.
So there simply aren't a lot of them, most of the blacks and hispanics in these colleges have significantly lower test scores.
https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_2.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

So why don't you provide some data to back up the claim that there are plenty of non-asian kids getting rejected from T20 colleges.
I would be particularly interested in seeing evidence that there are plenty of high scoring black and hispanic kids getting rejected from T-20 schools.

Solution: make college admissions solely based on standardized testing - and nothing else.

Not.

That's pretty much what the rest of the world does.

If you want to throw in other things you can, but none of those things can be race. You can discuss race but race cannot be a plus or minus. You cannot try to achieve diversity with racial preferences or any artifice or proxy for racial preferences.

Here in the US we have capitalism. Private colleges/universities are essentially businesses that provide a service. They define how they run their business. Aside from laws around discrimination and other protections, the government has little say in how they conduct their business.

If you want a college that admits students solely based in a single test, you are welcome to go start one yourself. You will discover if the market is interested in that or not.

That’s the beauty of the US.

No, they are not businesses in the ordinary sense.
It is not common for a business to sort through 50,000 potential customers and pick 1 in 25 of them.
Then offer to give half of them the product for free or a reduced price.

Stuyvesant in NYC is based solely on a test that over 27,000 students take. If tomorrow they decided to add some other criteria, it would not change the desire to apply.
They're not chasing the admissions criteria, they are chasing the school.

And no one is saying we should use a test because tests are the only way to admit students, we are pointing to the tests as evidence of possible discrimination and suggesting that we can't trust these institutions so we should use objective critieria

Stuyvesant is a public high school. It is fully funded by tax payers.

Private universities can do what they want. Even the threat of losing federal grants and other funding is really not that big of a deal to a private university with a stellar global rep and a huge endowment.

These schools do not want to rely entirely on the SAT for admissions. They do not want a purely objective selection process and greatly prize their ability to make subjective assessments to identify the best possible class. If you want to focus on public universities that's an entirely different conversation but those are not the schools that the people who are angry about this are fixated on.

Didn't you insist on this before the Supreme Court decision as well

The Supreme Court did not make admissions by test scores mandatory. Indeed, the vast majority of colleges and universities remain test optional, and SFFA isn’t suing any of them over that.

They weren't discriminating based on race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP. I agree, there should be a similar number of white and asian students at most of these schools except at the MOST selective schools because at the 1550+ level asians outnumber whites by 2::1

Schools are allowed to decide that, above a certain very high score, differences don't matter for admissions purposes.

Asians are also better in leadership, ECs, interviews, etc., hence strong suspicion about racial discrimination.

This is based on...?

Looks like there are a few people new to this.
It was revealed during the Harvard case.