SFFA doesn't like the Asian American %

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Rooftop Korean here.

We were not smiling during the LA riots. We saw cops drive past out stores as they were getting looted and burned. This is why you see so many Korean republicans in southern California.

We realized we weren't even seen as junior partners in the rainbow coalition, we were expected to be silent partners.

So we started running for office without having to pander to the Democrat machine. And frankly Republicans in California are so fkn happy to have us that they let us do wtf we want.

We were part of the movement that banned affirmative action in California and defeated 2 attempts to bring it back.

Now there are a bunch of Chinese brothers and sisters that don't expect to be treated like second class citizens just because they are immigrants and they recalled the San Francisco school board to get rid of the anti-Asian racists there. And they got their schools back. You guys in Virginia can take a lesson from us and from the Asians in NYC that successfully defended meritocracy at Stuyvesant. You guys are the weak link. We're in California, our votes barely matter. Stuyvesant is in NYC their votes barely matter. You guys are in a purple state and they would piss their pants if you got organized, get your act together, handle your sh*t

And for all the white people that think they get to divide up the pie how they like without any regard for who earned the biggest piece. Pay your own debts.

If you want to make up for 250 years of raping black women, selling their babies and hanging their sons, do it with your kids' futures. We never owned slaves, we never lynched black boys for whistling at white women. That was YOU and if you want to pay for it, then YOU should pay for it. Don't use your power to take from us to pay them back with a few fancy degrees.

At least at some of the most selective schools (like MIT, JHU, and Columbia), it seems Asian Americans have born the brunt of, if not all of, the “cost” of affirmative action.

What’s disturbing to me is that these institutions have never corrected the widespread public perception that the “cost” was divvied up among white applicants as well. (I mean if your aim is to show your remorse/address your historical crimes, then one would assume you are bearing the cost yourself.)

I think it was this seeming moral high ground on the part of the admission offices that made many Asian Americans, and the general public, accept Affirmative Action. If future litigation proves this was largely not the case, then I think the worldview/paradigm of many Asian Americans will drastically shift. I mean we always knew a thumb was on the scale in many areas – elite school admissions, entry to elite jobs, access to science research funding, etc., but I think we always thought college admissions at least was happening from a largely moral high ground.

(I definitely am in favor of a transparent and widespread system to assist in Black American/Native American educational outcomes.)

PP. I think most asians believe or at least suspect that they are being discriminated against.
But they don't think they can really do anything about it so they do what they can to overcome the discrimination.
I'm telling you you can't wait around and ask permission to stand up for your rights.
That permission will never come. They are going to keep telling you to work harder to overcome the discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Two potential solutions:

1. SCOTUS justices serve as the admissions panel for the top 10 schools

2. Top universities spell out the numerical metrics they will consider — e.g. test scores, grade point averages, etc. Each school pools together all the top applicants who rank highest on all the criteria collectively. Because that will still bring them more applicants than they can admit, each school identifies those they will offer admission from the pool via lottery. No consideration given to race, legacy status, geography, sport ability, etc. This is really the only completely fair and neutral way to do it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Well, that's the thing, they think all asians are the same.

Fungible humans.

The vast majority of kids coming out of affluent, suburban HSs - regardless of race - are fungible.

Colleges don’t want to fill their classes with thousands of kids with the same experiences.

That's so not true and again racist. The vast majority of Asian students are first or second gen who also live in a hostile anti-Asian environment thanks to people like you. Even the third gen have grandparents that are immigrants. Surely these kids all don't share the same experience as wonder bread kids since most Asian countries and cultures developed from 1000s of years ago (i.e., older than Europe) and not premanufactured. Asians have this dual advantage that white people don't consider when they're arguing for the one-dimensionality of Asians, who they also seem to think are just like them when convenient.

When you call everyone racist it starts to lose its meaning.

The vast majority of the kids in our affluent, suburban HSs really aren’t that unique. There are only so many classes, activities, sports, etc.

I'm only calling provincial people like you racist. You're dumb, too. People have a life outside of school. Yeah, really.

Now, I'll wait a few seconds for you to stretch your fingers so you can do some arithmetic. In fact nearly 2/3 of every day and all weekend might actually be out-of-school time. An Asian kid goes home to Asian parents who often have family rules defined by the Asian culture they grew up in (each culture from the continent of Asia is different) and they often eat Asian food. Not everyone is blessed enough to be able to get their cultural experiences from Panda Express and Taco Bell.

I guess you’ve run out of arguments when you start to ramp up the name calling and totally random ad hominems.

Do you have kids at an affluent, suburban HS? The kids who have been attending k-12 together all have similar experiences.

Some do travel sports, some do CTY, some get CS internships, some play an instrument, some do robotics, some win science fairs, some volunteer, etc. I know kids of all backgrounds who do all of these things. And, if you take a step back, you can see that they all are working off the same checklist for college admissions.

The exceptions are few and far between. With so many high-performing kids with similar resumes it’s tough to differentiate. That’s why admissions at top schools seems like a lottery these days. Thousands of kids across the US all look pretty similar.

Your argument seems, since you're white, that most white kids go to these privileged schools. However, I can surely tell you that is not the experience of many Asian kids. Your holistic approach argument seems to favor URM with their experiential essays but somehow not Asians that have faced similar struggles from living in a society that has so many of your type? Asian parents had to live through exclusive policies and things like the LA riots and learn how to smile. Asian kids applying to college now have had to live through the anti-Asian hate during COVID and the pervasive anti-Asian sentiment from college administrators whose numbers seem to include everyone but Asians. You want these kids to smile as well?

Rooftop Korean here.

We were not smiling during the LA riots. We saw cops drive past out stores as they were getting looted and burned. This is why you see so many Korean republicans in southern California.

We realized we weren't even seen as junior partners in the rainbow coalition, we were expected to be silent partners.

So we started running for office without having to pander to the Democrat machine. And frankly Republicans in California are so fkn happy to have us that they let us do wtf we want.

We were part of the movement that banned affirmative action in California and defeated 2 attempts to bring it back.

Now there are a bunch of Chinese brothers and sisters that don't expect to be treated like second class citizens just because they are immigrants and they recalled the San Francisco school board to get rid of the anti-Asian racists there. And they got their schools back. You guys in Virginia can take a lesson from us and from the Asians in NYC that successfully defended meritocracy at Stuyvesant. You guys are the weak link. We're in California, our votes barely matter. Stuyvesant is in NYC their votes barely matter. You guys are in a purple state and they would piss their pants if you got organized, get your act together, handle your sh*t

And for all the white people that think they get to divide up the pie how they like without any regard for who earned the biggest piece. Pay your own debts.

If you want to make up for 250 years of raping black women, selling their babies and hanging their sons, do it with your kids' futures. We never owned slaves, we never lynched black boys for whistling at white women. That was YOU and if you want to pay for it, then YOU should pay for it. Don't use your power to take from us to pay them back with a few fancy degrees.

And yet all the UMC Americans of Korean ancestry have zero problem with the current system. They love legacy, figure out how to excel at sports and other aspects of the college game, and about 70% vote Democrat because they are no longer interested in being the useful idiots of conservative causes that don’t actually help them much (and often times hurt them).

I am an UMC korean american and I don't know any koreans that defend legacy admissions.
It is culturally abhorrent to us. If seoul national university started giving out legacy preferences, there would protests and maybe even rioting.
Yes, we push our kids to play sports because it is part of what is measured in college admissions but we don't really want to spend 4 nights a week going to youth sporting events like its a part time job.
Honestly, the money we spend on youth sports makes me wonder how poor kids are expected to compete.

We are not aligned with conservative causes, never were.
But we don't want our kids to be racially discriminated against.
We don't want our kids top think about how to appear less asian to the world because there are already too many asians.

The only Asian group that leans republican is Vietnamese, primarily because they don’t have the benefit of generations of actually being American.

The vietnamese were already here when most koreans got here.
The vietnamese frequently have a pretty deep aversion to communism and a lot of the CRT and equity concepts are seen as marxism in disguise.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

Again, this is one data point.

The US will never do admissions based purely on the SAT. It isn't really in anyone's interest except a small number of families and kids who make scoring as high as possible on the SAT their life's mission.

+1
There is not support for making the SAT score the end all be all determinant of college decisions. Most Americans are not envious of foreign colleges (except for the price). If the way foreign colleges handle it is so much better, surely they are open to Int’l students just like our colleges are.

If you don't like bans on abortion, surely you can leave the fkn country. See how stupid that argument is?

We aren't calling for admissions based soolely on test scores. We are calling for admissions that do not racially discriminate and the test scores is the most obvious indicator that racial discrimination may be going on.

It’s a stupid argument because you don’t have to leave the country, you can move to another state…which many people are doing.

Also, it’s fairly easy to attend college in a foreign country because it’s a limited time period and they easily grant visas.

If most countries allowed anyone to enter and freely work and become part of that country, you actually would see many people just move to a country that fits their beliefs.

I think i'd rather just stay here and try to create that more perfect union.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two potential solutions:

1. SCOTUS justices serve as the admissions panel for the top 10 schools

2. Top universities spell out the numerical metrics they will consider — e.g. test scores, grade point averages, etc. Each school pools together all the top applicants who rank highest on all the criteria collectively. Because that will still bring them more applicants than they can admit, each school identifies those they will offer admission from the pool via lottery. No consideration given to race, legacy status, geography, sport ability, etc. This is really the only completely fair and neutral way to do it.

Dream on, sucker. Never going to happen.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

Asian culture is not to make excuses and blame others, but they'll probably start doing that adopting to the American culture.

Well American universities reflect American culture and values. If AAPI kids in the US would prefer an Asian cultural experience in college they are welcome to apply to universities in Asia which will not care at all about their experiences with racism or how coaching Little League taught them empathy or whatever.

I wonder why more students don't just do this if they prefer a purely objective application process.

Because Asians in America are American you fkin moron. Most likely speak English better than you and most definitely do schooling better than you (and most don't speak a foreign language to any proficiency to go to school in a foreign country). Fkin racist. Culture is not nationality and Asian Americans do not hold allegiance to foreign states.

PP be sure to tell the other POC where to go back to school to enjoy their "culture." Like the country of "Central America," the country of the "Middle East," and the country of "Africa," right???

Asian American students are doing just fine. In California. The full pay Asian foreigners are the ones going to the Ivies and such. That's why they loooooove the standardized tests: it's part of the country wide testing culture.

Stop being racist. Asian Americans in California are not doing fine. By whose metric? Some are going to highly selective schools. There are a large number of Asian Americans in California being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their test scores are somehow not good enough, yet much higher than other kids who got in through "holistic" measures.

There are also a lot of not-Asian kids being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their very high test scores are not what those universities want.

Not really.
There are almost no black students with 1500+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20, probably T10
There are almost no hispanic students with 1550+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20
There are a ton of asians students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20
There are a ton of white students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20

Can you back up your claims? Show us the data. I’m not going to hold my breath because you can’t. Period.

Here's the thing, my side is the ONLY side that has provided any studies or data. All you have to contribute is outrage and butthurt.
The high scoring black students barely exist.
The high scoring hispanics are not much more common.
So there simply aren't a lot of them, most of the blacks and hispanics in these colleges have significantly lower test scores.
https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_2.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

So why don't you provide some data to back up the claim that there are plenty of non-asian kids getting rejected from T20 colleges.
I would be particularly interested in seeing evidence that there are plenty of high scoring black and hispanic kids getting rejected from T-20 schools.

Solution: make college admissions solely based on standardized testing - and nothing else.

Not.

That's pretty much what the rest of the world does.

If you want to throw in other things you can, but none of those things can be race. You can discuss race but race cannot be a plus or minus. You cannot try to achieve diversity with racial preferences or any artifice or proxy for racial preferences.

Here in the US we have capitalism. Private colleges/universities are essentially businesses that provide a service. They define how they run their business. Aside from laws around discrimination and other protections, the government has little say in how they conduct their business.

If you want a college that admits students solely based in a single test, you are welcome to go start one yourself. You will discover if the market is interested in that or not.

That’s the beauty of the US.

No, they are not businesses in the ordinary sense.
It is not common for a business to sort through 50,000 potential customers and pick 1 in 25 of them.
Then offer to give half of them the product for free or a reduced price.

Stuyvesant in NYC is based solely on a test that over 27,000 students take. If tomorrow they decided to add some other criteria, it would not change the desire to apply.
They're not chasing the admissions criteria, they are chasing the school.

And no one is saying we should use a test because tests are the only way to admit students, we are pointing to the tests as evidence of possible discrimination and suggesting that we can't trust these institutions so we should use objective critieria

Stuyvesant is a public high school. It is fully funded by tax payers.

Private universities can do what they want. Even the threat of losing federal grants and other funding is really not that big of a deal to a private university with a stellar global rep and a huge endowment.

These schools do not want to rely entirely on the SAT for admissions. They do not want a purely objective selection process and greatly prize their ability to make subjective assessments to identify the best possible class. If you want to focus on public universities that's an entirely different conversation but those are not the schools that the people who are angry about this are fixated on.

If it's not a big deal then let then lose their federal funding and tax exempt status.
Problem solved.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Well, that's the thing, they think all asians are the same.

Fungible humans.

The vast majority of kids coming out of affluent, suburban HSs - regardless of race - are fungible.

Colleges don’t want to fill their classes with thousands of kids with the same experiences.

That's so not true and again racist. The vast majority of Asian students are first or second gen who also live in a hostile anti-Asian environment thanks to people like you. Even the third gen have grandparents that are immigrants. Surely these kids all don't share the same experience as wonder bread kids since most Asian countries and cultures developed from 1000s of years ago (i.e., older than Europe) and not premanufactured. Asians have this dual advantage that white people don't consider when they're arguing for the one-dimensionality of Asians, who they also seem to think are just like them when convenient.

When you call everyone racist it starts to lose its meaning.

The vast majority of the kids in our affluent, suburban HSs really aren’t that unique. There are only so many classes, activities, sports, etc.

I'm only calling provincial people like you racist. You're dumb, too. People have a life outside of school. Yeah, really.

Now, I'll wait a few seconds for you to stretch your fingers so you can do some arithmetic. In fact nearly 2/3 of every day and all weekend might actually be out-of-school time. An Asian kid goes home to Asian parents who often have family rules defined by the Asian culture they grew up in (each culture from the continent of Asia is different) and they often eat Asian food. Not everyone is blessed enough to be able to get their cultural experiences from Panda Express and Taco Bell.

I guess you’ve run out of arguments when you start to ramp up the name calling and totally random ad hominems.

Do you have kids at an affluent, suburban HS? The kids who have been attending k-12 together all have similar experiences.

Some do travel sports, some do CTY, some get CS internships, some play an instrument, some do robotics, some win science fairs, some volunteer, etc. I know kids of all backgrounds who do all of these things. And, if you take a step back, you can see that they all are working off the same checklist for college admissions.

The exceptions are few and far between. With so many high-performing kids with similar resumes it’s tough to differentiate. That’s why admissions at top schools seems like a lottery these days. Thousands of kids across the US all look pretty similar.

Your argument seems, since you're white, that most white kids go to these privileged schools. However, I can surely tell you that is not the experience of many Asian kids. Your holistic approach argument seems to favor URM with their experiential essays but somehow not Asians that have faced similar struggles from living in a society that has so many of your type? Asian parents had to live through exclusive policies and things like the LA riots and learn how to smile. Asian kids applying to college now have had to live through the anti-Asian hate during COVID and the pervasive anti-Asian sentiment from college administrators whose numbers seem to include everyone but Asians. You want these kids to smile as well?

Rooftop Korean here.

We were not smiling during the LA riots. We saw cops drive past out stores as they were getting looted and burned. This is why you see so many Korean republicans in southern California.

We realized we weren't even seen as junior partners in the rainbow coalition, we were expected to be silent partners.

So we started running for office without having to pander to the Democrat machine. And frankly Republicans in California are so fkn happy to have us that they let us do wtf we want.

We were part of the movement that banned affirmative action in California and defeated 2 attempts to bring it back.

Now there are a bunch of Chinese brothers and sisters that don't expect to be treated like second class citizens just because they are immigrants and they recalled the San Francisco school board to get rid of the anti-Asian racists there. And they got their schools back. You guys in Virginia can take a lesson from us and from the Asians in NYC that successfully defended meritocracy at Stuyvesant. You guys are the weak link. We're in California, our votes barely matter. Stuyvesant is in NYC their votes barely matter. You guys are in a purple state and they would piss their pants if you got organized, get your act together, handle your sh*t

And for all the white people that think they get to divide up the pie how they like without any regard for who earned the biggest piece. Pay your own debts.

If you want to make up for 250 years of raping black women, selling their babies and hanging their sons, do it with your kids' futures. We never owned slaves, we never lynched black boys for whistling at white women. That was YOU and if you want to pay for it, then YOU should pay for it. Don't use your power to take from us to pay them back with a few fancy degrees.

And yet all the UMC Americans of Korean ancestry have zero problem with the current system. They love legacy, figure out how to excel at sports and other aspects of the college game, and about 70% vote Democrat because they are no longer interested in being the useful idiots of conservative causes that don’t actually help them much (and often times hurt them).

The only Asian group that leans republican is Vietnamese, primarily because they don’t have the benefit of generations of actually being American.

How do you figure out how to excel at sports? Does that even make sense that some Koreans have the secret sauce? Are they getting D1 scholarships in great numbers as well?

Country club sports.
Look at the fencing team at any ivy+

Also, it was made very clear by my Vietnamese professor that many naturalized Americans from Viet Nam have a special affinity for John McCain, because he personally fought to bring over many refugees in various waves, and they vote republican only because of him.

A lot of them don't like communism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

Again, this is one data point.

The US will never do admissions based purely on the SAT. It isn't really in anyone's interest except a small number of families and kids who make scoring as high as possible on the SAT their life's mission.

+1
There is not support for making the SAT score the end all be all determinant of college decisions. Most Americans are not envious of foreign colleges (except for the price). If the way foreign colleges handle it is so much better, surely they are open to Int’l students just like our colleges are.

If you don't like bans on abortion, surely you can leave the fkn country. See how stupid that argument is?

We aren't calling for admissions based soolely on test scores. We are calling for admissions that do not racially discriminate and the test scores is the most obvious indicator that racial discrimination may be going on.

I’m not justifying my view that we need to rewind the clock 2 years on abortion access by pointing to other countries’ laws. PPs here keep saying “the rest of the world just uses a single test” as if that means the US should do the same.

And if colleges are evaluating on many criteria then fixating on SAT scores in comparing races’ admission rates cherry picks out only one part of the application colleges are evaluating.

Look. This is exhausting. It would be like white people at the C suite or Board level arguing that despite the fact that like 90%+ of the people at that level are white - massively over represented compared to white people in society - that there is no benefit in trying to diversity who are part of those groups. It’s a bad look to opportunity hoard when you are already massively over represented in a certain realm.

No, I am not saying that. I am responding to posts that make it sound like insanity to base college admissions on test scores.
It is entirely normal to base it on test scores.
We don't have to base it entirely on test scores but we CANNOT base it on race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

Again, this is one data point.

The US will never do admissions based purely on the SAT. It isn't really in anyone's interest except a small number of families and kids who make scoring as high as possible on the SAT their life's mission.

+1
There is not support for making the SAT score the end all be all determinant of college decisions. Most Americans are not envious of foreign colleges (except for the price). If the way foreign colleges handle it is so much better, surely they are open to Int’l students just like our colleges are.

If you don't like bans on abortion, surely you can leave the fkn country. See how stupid that argument is?

We aren't calling for admissions based soolely on test scores. We are calling for admissions that do not racially discriminate and the test scores is the most obvious indicator that racial discrimination may be going on.

I’m not justifying my view that we need to rewind the clock 2 years on abortion access by pointing to other countries’ laws. PPs here keep saying “the rest of the world just uses a single test” as if that means the US should do the same.

And if colleges are evaluating on many criteria then fixating on SAT scores in comparing races’ admission rates cherry picks out only one part of the application colleges are evaluating.

Look. This is exhausting. It would be like white people at the C suite or Board level arguing that despite the fact that like 90%+ of the people at that level are white - massively over represented compared to white people in society - that there is no benefit in trying to diversity who are part of those groups. It’s a bad look to opportunity hoard when you are already massively over represented in a certain realm.

Racial discrimination is a worse look. Stop excusing racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

Asian culture is not to make excuses and blame others, but they'll probably start doing that adopting to the American culture.

Well American universities reflect American culture and values. If AAPI kids in the US would prefer an Asian cultural experience in college they are welcome to apply to universities in Asia which will not care at all about their experiences with racism or how coaching Little League taught them empathy or whatever.

I wonder why more students don't just do this if they prefer a purely objective application process.

Because Asians in America are American you fkin moron. Most likely speak English better than you and most definitely do schooling better than you (and most don't speak a foreign language to any proficiency to go to school in a foreign country). Fkin racist. Culture is not nationality and Asian Americans do not hold allegiance to foreign states.

PP be sure to tell the other POC where to go back to school to enjoy their "culture." Like the country of "Central America," the country of the "Middle East," and the country of "Africa," right???

Asian American students are doing just fine. In California. The full pay Asian foreigners are the ones going to the Ivies and such. That's why they loooooove the standardized tests: it's part of the country wide testing culture.

Stop being racist. Asian Americans in California are not doing fine. By whose metric? Some are going to highly selective schools. There are a large number of Asian Americans in California being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their test scores are somehow not good enough, yet much higher than other kids who got in through "holistic" measures.

There are also a lot of not-Asian kids being denied access to T10 and T20 universities because their very high test scores are not what those universities want.

Not really.
There are almost no black students with 1500+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20, probably T10
There are almost no hispanic students with 1550+ test scores and high GPAs that aren't getting into T20
There are a ton of asians students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20
There are a ton of white students with 1550+ test scores and good grades that are not getting into T20

Can you back up your claims? Show us the data. I’m not going to hold my breath because you can’t. Period.

Here's the thing, my side is the ONLY side that has provided any studies or data. All you have to contribute is outrage and butthurt.
The high scoring black students barely exist.
The high scoring hispanics are not much more common.
So there simply aren't a lot of them, most of the blacks and hispanics in these colleges have significantly lower test scores.
https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_2.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

So why don't you provide some data to back up the claim that there are plenty of non-asian kids getting rejected from T20 colleges.
I would be particularly interested in seeing evidence that there are plenty of high scoring black and hispanic kids getting rejected from T-20 schools.

Solution: make college admissions solely based on standardized testing - and nothing else.

Not.

That's pretty much what the rest of the world does.

If you want to throw in other things you can, but none of those things can be race. You can discuss race but race cannot be a plus or minus. You cannot try to achieve diversity with racial preferences or any artifice or proxy for racial preferences.

Here in the US we have capitalism. Private colleges/universities are essentially businesses that provide a service. They define how they run their business. Aside from laws around discrimination and other protections, the government has little say in how they conduct their business.

If you want a college that admits students solely based in a single test, you are welcome to go start one yourself. You will discover if the market is interested in that or not.

That’s the beauty of the US.

No, they are not businesses in the ordinary sense.
It is not common for a business to sort through 50,000 potential customers and pick 1 in 25 of them.
Then offer to give half of them the product for free or a reduced price.

Stuyvesant in NYC is based solely on a test that over 27,000 students take. If tomorrow they decided to add some other criteria, it would not change the desire to apply.
They're not chasing the admissions criteria, they are chasing the school.

And no one is saying we should use a test because tests are the only way to admit students, we are pointing to the tests as evidence of possible discrimination and suggesting that we can't trust these institutions so we should use objective critieria

Stuyvesant is a public high school. It is fully funded by tax payers.

Private universities can do what they want. Even the threat of losing federal grants and other funding is really not that big of a deal to a private university with a stellar global rep and a huge endowment.

These schools do not want to rely entirely on the SAT for admissions. They do not want a purely objective selection process and greatly prize their ability to make subjective assessments to identify the best possible class. If you want to focus on public universities that's an entirely different conversation but those are not the schools that the people who are angry about this are fixated on.

Didn't you insist on this before the Supreme Court decision as well

The Supreme Court did not make admissions by test scores mandatory. Indeed, the vast majority of colleges and universities remain test optional, and SFFA isn’t suing any of them over that.

True. It's really only the racial discrimination and not lack of standards that bothers them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

Again, this is one data point.

The US will never do admissions based purely on the SAT. It isn't really in anyone's interest except a small number of families and kids who make scoring as high as possible on the SAT their life's mission.

+1
There is not support for making the SAT score the end all be all determinant of college decisions. Most Americans are not envious of foreign colleges (except for the price). If the way foreign colleges handle it is so much better, surely they are open to Int’l students just like our colleges are.

If you don't like bans on abortion, surely you can leave the fkn country. See how stupid that argument is?

We aren't calling for admissions based soolely on test scores. We are calling for admissions that do not racially discriminate and the test scores is the most obvious indicator that racial discrimination may be going on.

I’m not justifying my view that we need to rewind the clock 2 years on abortion access by pointing to other countries’ laws. PPs here keep saying “the rest of the world just uses a single test” as if that means the US should do the same.

And if colleges are evaluating on many criteria then fixating on SAT scores in comparing races’ admission rates cherry picks out only one part of the application colleges are evaluating.

Look. This is exhausting. It would be like white people at the C suite or Board level arguing that despite the fact that like 90%+ of the people at that level are white - massively over represented compared to white people in society - that there is no benefit in trying to diversity who are part of those groups. It’s a bad look to opportunity hoard when you are already massively over represented in a certain realm.

No, I am not saying that. I am responding to posts that make it sound like insanity to base college admissions on test scores.
It is entirely normal to base it on test scores.
We don't have to base it entirely on test scores but we CANNOT base it on race.

That’s the situation we had for this past admissions cycle, but you’re still mad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two potential solutions:

1. SCOTUS justices serve as the admissions panel for the top 10 schools

2. Top universities spell out the numerical metrics they will consider — e.g. test scores, grade point averages, etc. Each school pools together all the top applicants who rank highest on all the criteria collectively. Because that will still bring them more applicants than they can admit, each school identifies those they will offer admission from the pool via lottery. No consideration given to race, legacy status, geography, sport ability, etc. This is really the only completely fair and neutral way to do it.

This is sort of how medical residencies work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do the math. In 2022 the SAT test taker demographics were as follows (from https://reports.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/2022-total-group-sat-suite-of-assessments-annual-report.pdf)

175,468 Asians
201,645 Black/African Americans
396,422 Hispanic/Latino
732,946 White

In 2020, the percentage of takers getting a 1500+/1400+ (respectively) by race were:

9%/23% of Asians
<1%/1% of Black/African Americans
<1%/2% of Hispanics/Latinos
2%/7% of Whites

That means that among the pool of people getting 1500/1400+ (rounding <1% to 0.5%):

15,792/40,357 are Asian
1,008/2,016 are Black
1,982/7,928 are Hispanic
14,658/51,306 are White

Do what you will with this information.

Not sure where you are getting the 1500+ numbers as I don't see them in the linked document, but I'm looking in my phone so I guess I'll assume they are correct for purposes of this conversation.

This is one data point. We know nothing about these candidates other than score.

But even assuming that every student with a 1500+ on the SAT is a great candidate for all T10 colleges, you can see there are not enough seats for all of them, right? And at any given school (and many if them only have @2000 or fewer spots available in each cycle) there is nothing close to room to admit every student with a 1500+. So they need to distinguish among these candidates.

For black and Hispanic candidates (and Native and Pacific Islanders), the process of differentiation is easier because they are significantly more likely to have a background distinct from the majority of applicants with a 1500+. Less likely to have attended the same schools, more likely to live in a different part of the country, and likely to have cultural touchstones and experiences different from the majority of 1500+ candidates.

For Asian and white candidates this is harder because there are more if them. These candidates, in both race categories, are MUCH more likely to have similar backgrounds, the same high schools, and be from the same part of the country as one another. It is harder for these candidates to distinguish themselves.

Further, because Asian candidates with 1500+ are more likely even than white candidates to be from the same communities as one another, they are at a significant disadvantage in the process of becoming one of the 2000 people admitted to one of these colleges. Asian HS students are concentrated in the US to a handful of areas and because of immigration patterns it is common for there to be large communities of kids with remarkably similar backgrounds and stories. White students are more likely than Asian applicants to come from rural places or from states that send tiny percentages of students to T10 schools. While white students from the same areas and high schools where Asian students are scoring 1500+ are more likely than other white students to score 1500+, white students are *more likely* than Asian students to be from diverse geographic and economic backgrounds.

And this is why schools are not 47% Asian, 45% white, and 3% black and Hispanic. Because these schools are not just looking at this one metric.

they will be soon enough. when there are just 1k black students making over 1500+, there is no way they should or will comprise 10% of the top 15 privates

Again, this is one data point.

The US will never do admissions based purely on the SAT. It isn't really in anyone's interest except a small number of families and kids who make scoring as high as possible on the SAT their life's mission.

+1
There is not support for making the SAT score the end all be all determinant of college decisions. Most Americans are not envious of foreign colleges (except for the price). If the way foreign colleges handle it is so much better, surely they are open to Int’l students just like our colleges are.

If you don't like bans on abortion, surely you can leave the fkn country. See how stupid that argument is?

We aren't calling for admissions based soolely on test scores. We are calling for admissions that do not racially discriminate and the test scores is the most obvious indicator that racial discrimination may be going on.

I’m not justifying my view that we need to rewind the clock 2 years on abortion access by pointing to other countries’ laws. PPs here keep saying “the rest of the world just uses a single test” as if that means the US should do the same.

And if colleges are evaluating on many criteria then fixating on SAT scores in comparing races’ admission rates cherry picks out only one part of the application colleges are evaluating.

Look. This is exhausting. It would be like white people at the C suite or Board level arguing that despite the fact that like 90%+ of the people at that level are white - massively over represented compared to white people in society - that there is no benefit in trying to diversity who are part of those groups. It’s a bad look to opportunity hoard when you are already massively over represented in a certain realm.

No, I am not saying that. I am responding to posts that make it sound like insanity to base college admissions on test scores.
It is entirely normal to base it on test scores.
We don't have to base it entirely on test scores but we CANNOT base it on race.

That’s the situation we had for this past admissions cycle, but you’re still mad.

We don't know that yet. We won't find out until after discovery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two potential solutions:

1. SCOTUS justices serve as the admissions panel for the top 10 schools

2. Top universities spell out the numerical metrics they will consider — e.g. test scores, grade point averages, etc. Each school pools together all the top applicants who rank highest on all the criteria collectively. Because that will still bring them more applicants than they can admit, each school identifies those they will offer admission from the pool via lottery. No consideration given to race, legacy status, geography, sport ability, etc. This is really the only completely fair and neutral way to do it.

These proposed solutions reflect a real misunderstanding of all the institutions involved to a degree that I find strange. Having the Supreme Court serve as an admissions panel for "top 10 schools" would be illegal and nonsensical especially when you understand that "top 10" is a purely subjective designation and there's not even agreement on what those 10 schools are (T10 is widely believed to actually refer to 12 schools). Additonally admission at the schools you are referring is driven more by wealth and social status than anything else certainly including race -- the surest path to admission to these schools is to attend one of a handful of extremely expensive and "elite" private high schools in the US and to have parents who can afford to pay for tutoring and college admissions counseling and involvement in specific extra curriculars. The entire point of these schools is to reinforce an elite by educating the existing elite's children. And I'm not even talking to legacy admissions here (though obviously yes including those) but just the ability of parents to essentially buy their children passage into these schools and then from these schools into top graduate schools and careers.

The idea that we need to overhaul the "system" for awarding this elite status to incoming college freshman in order to make it more fair is laughable -- the system is unfair by design and the only way to make it fair is to eliminate it altogether. Which will not happen. This is America's aristocratic elite. They control industry and the media and the financial system. This is how they choose to educate their children. It's a private system -- these are private colleges. People want access to these schools because they think it's the entry into the elite and for some tiny percentage of non-elite kids who via a combination of inborn talent and rigorous hard work and plain old luck it might be. But mostly it's not and the presence of these non-elites in the system (including the tiny fraction of middle and lower class Asian students who obtain admission via merit) is largely there to make the experience look and feel "right" to the elites that the system was designed by and for.

Like you just don't get it. These schools aren't for you. They aren't for me either by the way. This is not a meritocracy. Everyone knows this. If you want to make sure admission to public universities is as faire and unbiased as it possibly can be including with regards to race I will back you up and support that. But what you are asking for with regards to Harvard and Yale and Stanford and the like is pure fantasy. A fairy tale that has no basis in reality and no legal grounding and a 0% change of ever coming to fruition. They will burn these schools to the ground before making their admissions purely meritocratic. I don't know how else to explain this to you. These schools are not about finding and educating the best and the brightest out of a benevolent desire to better the world. Never have been and never will be. Look to public universities for this. That's where meritocracy can actually thrive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wonder how people would feel if admissions was largely based on SAT score and this resulted in classes at top schools heavily skewed towards men and mem are significantly more likely to score higher on the SAT than women

As overall students, women are better than men, and it’d be interesting to see what these colleges’ classes would look like if they stopped their 50/50 gender policies and went blind.

STEM (except stuff that can get you into medical school) would be vastly more male, most other majors would be vastly more female.

Which is a cultural issue that should be fixed, not an admissions one. Many other countries have women more represented in all stem subjects, so it comes down to understanding why there’s such a massive gap in the US, and why our standardized exam results in women with worse scores across the board