Who thinks the new TJ admissions proposal will increase URM enrollment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

I went to TJ in the late 90s and it honestly seems the same now as when I went. Then and now, kids wanted good grades, wanted to get into a good college, felt pressure to take advanced courses...and this is true of top students at most any high school in America. I think there has been a general increase in pressure nationally as there are more students and the same number of elite college spots, and it's easier to apply to lots of colleges with common app and online applications, and this applies to Langley and McLean just as much as TJ. I think the biggest difference at TJ specifically is increased state graduation requirements (history, epf) have made more summer school seem necessary...so in that one respect there probably is a little more pressure. But honestly, all of the discussion reads to me like this:

People who have no firsthand experience with TJ: TJ is so high stress, full of cheaters, preppers, etc. My kid will never apply.

Multiple people who actually have firsthand experience with TJ: You're wrong.

People who have no firsthand experience: I don't believe you.

I totally see why many people think the anti-TJ posters either have sour grapes or think their kids won't get in or something. They refuse to listen to first hand testimony.

Was there rampant cheating in the 90s?

No, and I don't believe there is now either. And I gather surveys have shown that the amount of cheating at TJ isn't any different than at any other schools, but again, anti-TJ posters refuse to listen to that evidence. From teachers I know, there's tons of cheating at the neighborhood schools in FCPS. If there is cheating at TJ, it's certainly no different than stories I've heard from McLean, South Lakes, Lake Braddock, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

I went to TJ in the late 90s and it honestly seems the same now as when I went. Then and now, kids wanted good grades, wanted to get into a good college, felt pressure to take advanced courses...and this is true of top students at most any high school in America. I think there has been a general increase in pressure nationally as there are more students and the same number of elite college spots, and it's easier to apply to lots of colleges with common app and online applications, and this applies to Langley and McLean just as much as TJ. I think the biggest difference at TJ specifically is increased state graduation requirements (history, epf) have made more summer school seem necessary...so in that one respect there probably is a little more pressure. But honestly, all of the discussion reads to me like this:

People who have no firsthand experience with TJ: TJ is so high stress, full of cheaters, preppers, etc. My kid will never apply.

Multiple people who actually have firsthand experience with TJ: You're wrong.

People who have no firsthand experience: I don't believe you.

I totally see why many people think the anti-TJ posters either have sour grapes or think their kids won't get in or something. They refuse to listen to first hand testimony.

The people who have first-hand experience in both eras (90s-early 2000s and today) will tell you it is extraordinarily different. Listen to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only thing that will increase the # of URMs at TJ is improving preschool and early elementary education at all schools, and even before school age, with wraparound services inside and outside the school. But that's too long-term, expensive, hard and boring. The SB wants a quick fix that they can point to and say see? we did it.

You keep saying this but you seem unaware of Young Scholars, the wraparound services at some schools, and other programs that do what you say.

If your DC is 4, you may be unaware of the current TJ issues. So listen when posters talk about them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school will now be more for students who don’t look at it as a prize to win, but who actually have an interest in STEM. It won’t be comprised of students who prepped for an admissions process, but rather who are simply good students. It will definitely be more attractive to more URMs and more people in general as a result.

It won’t ruin the school, the schools already been ruined. This is a last chance effort to save it.

This is an interesting perspective. And I’m not saying it’s wrong.
I think whether or not the school has been “ruined” depends on what your view is as to its purpose to begin with. If its existence is aimed at fostering a rigorous STEM learning program to those who were high-achieving and showed high-interest in STEM then I think you’re correct.
If it’s meant to be the flagship “crown jewel” of FCPS that houses only the top of the top kids in academic performance, then yeah—the school board has “ruined” this (Or at least sacrificed its reputation, which is what consistently lands it at the top of the list in nationwide high school rankings) in favor of admissions outcome equity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it extremely racist to dismiss the lack of diversity at TJ as: those URM kids are just not interested.

I am a URM minority. My child is at TJ. So, this post is from someone who has firsthand experience with the school. The school is trying to fix the insanely huge diversity problem. No one is saying that the quality of the education has to go down. But, being the very top school in the nation (based largely on test scores) is not nearly as important to me as us giving URM children a chance to experience a high quality STEM program. And, giving the students the opportunity to work with peers from diverse backgrounds, including black and latinx families.

Their "lack of interest" (which has never been proven) is likely lack of exposure to STEM, lack of resources to pursue STEM activities, and a general feeling of not being accepted in those privileged groups who do have access/resources.

These uniformed and biased arguments about why URM are not currently at TJ reminds me of our country's past where white culture promoted the idea that black people were less intelligent and physically stronger so they want to work in the fields. Why would they want a STEM education?

Is the current change in admission policy perfect, no. But, can we please respect that the State is trying to address a very important problem. And, they should not stop until it's addressed. They have tried other options in the past that failed. So, keep trying. I respect what they are trying to do.

Look, the bolded is the problem. But to fix it, you need programs that are long-term, expensive, booooring to implement and start very, very early. It's not a TJ problem. The SB is too chicken to admit that this is the problem and commit to fixing it. They want a quick fix. They got it in the lottery - which will do absolutely nothing about exposure to STEM in early ears or adding resources to pursue STEM activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

I went to TJ in the late 90s and it honestly seems the same now as when I went. Then and now, kids wanted good grades, wanted to get into a good college, felt pressure to take advanced courses...and this is true of top students at most any high school in America. I think there has been a general increase in pressure nationally as there are more students and the same number of elite college spots, and it's easier to apply to lots of colleges with common app and online applications, and this applies to Langley and McLean just as much as TJ. I think the biggest difference at TJ specifically is increased state graduation requirements (history, epf) have made more summer school seem necessary...so in that one respect there probably is a little more pressure. But honestly, all of the discussion reads to me like this:

People who have no firsthand experience with TJ: TJ is so high stress, full of cheaters, preppers, etc. My kid will never apply.

Multiple people who actually have firsthand experience with TJ: You're wrong.

People who have no firsthand experience: I don't believe you.

I totally see why many people think the anti-TJ posters either have sour grapes or think their kids won't get in or something. They refuse to listen to first hand testimony.

Another 90s TJ grad here - extremely disappointing what the school has become. So glad these changes were made. The toxic environment at the school is all my fellow grads and I talk about when talking about the school. We al have careers that current TJ students prep like crazy in hopes to achieve. None of us were part of a prepping culture.

As an alum, I think you and your fellow grads have a very misinformed perception of the school today. No, most of us did not prep for the admissions process then. Maybe that makes middle school a different experience from back then, but once the kids are in TJ the environment isn't really any different than it was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

I went to TJ in the late 90s and it honestly seems the same now as when I went. Then and now, kids wanted good grades, wanted to get into a good college, felt pressure to take advanced courses...and this is true of top students at most any high school in America. I think there has been a general increase in pressure nationally as there are more students and the same number of elite college spots, and it's easier to apply to lots of colleges with common app and online applications, and this applies to Langley and McLean just as much as TJ. I think the biggest difference at TJ specifically is increased state graduation requirements (history, epf) have made more summer school seem necessary...so in that one respect there probably is a little more pressure. But honestly, all of the discussion reads to me like this:

People who have no firsthand experience with TJ: TJ is so high stress, full of cheaters, preppers, etc. My kid will never apply.

Multiple people who actually have firsthand experience with TJ: You're wrong.

People who have no firsthand experience: I don't believe you.

I totally see why many people think the anti-TJ posters either have sour grapes or think their kids won't get in or something. They refuse to listen to first hand testimony.

The people who have first-hand experience in both eras (90s-early 2000s and today) will tell you it is extraordinarily different. Listen to them.

I am the quoted poster, and I have first-hand experience in both eras. And I am saying it is not very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing that will increase the # of URMs at TJ is improving preschool and early elementary education at all schools, and even before school age, with wraparound services inside and outside the school. But that's too long-term, expensive, hard and boring. The SB wants a quick fix that they can point to and say see? we did it.

You keep saying this but you seem unaware of Young Scholars, the wraparound services at some schools, and other programs that do what you say.

If your DC is 4, you may be unaware of the current TJ issues. So listen when posters talk about them.

I know it's not TJ that didn't give early elementary URMs resources for STEM activities, or stole away from them their chance for exposure to STEM. Look at the root of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

Posting this again bc people's eyes seem to glaze over when details are concerned:

Actually, that's not true. I have a friend whose two children went to TJ, one in 2004, the other in 2011. She said there was a world of difference between these experiences, and the one in 2011 was way watered down. This is a person who is a scientist at a large high-tech company, with a "mathy" family and mathy kids. This is what she had to say:

"Here is a typical sequence of math classes in school:
Pre-algebra
Algebra 1;
Geometry;
Algebra 2;
Pre-Calculus;
AP Calculus AB;
AP Calculus BC;
Multi variable Calculus;
Linear (Matrix) Algebra;
Ordinary Differential Equations;
Complex Analysis;
and may be a few others.
Now.
***The trick is that different kids take these courses at very different grades! And many kids skip many of the steps!***
Pre-Algebra is regularly skipped. Geometry and Algebra-2 sometimes are taken during the same year, in parallel. AP Calculus AB is regularly skipped. Algebra-1 can be taken as early as 3-rd grade (I know one case) or as late as grade 10.
As a result, the kids who are coming to TJ **now** may have taken all math including AP Calculus BC already, before their 9-th grade. Or at least Pre Calculus. **These kids are ready to take Calculus based Physics right then, in 9-th grade.** And they are ready to understand complex algorithms taught in Artificial Intelligence courses.
How was TJ getting kids who are that advanced? The answer is simple - very tough entrance exams provided that preparedness filter.
Now take away the entrance exams. The kids who will come to TJ on lottery will be getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as simple as Allegra-1. The kids who were taking tough exams were able to pass them because they were getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as complex as AP Calculus BC. It is a **tremendous** difference in the level of preparedness. Can be as much as SIX YEARS WORTH OF DIFFERENCE!!! Naturally the level of math courses offered in the "new TJ" will have to go down to accommodate the new crop of students.

This can be achieved with zero private tutors and zero dollars. My son came to TJ having finished AP Calculus BC in 8-th grade. This was completed in his regular school. He took AP Calculus BC while still in middle school (he had to cross the football field and enter the high school building). " END QUOTE


Algebra 1 in the US schools is a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it extremely racist to dismiss the lack of diversity at TJ as: those URM kids are just not interested.

I am a URM minority. My child is at TJ. So, this post is from someone who has firsthand experience with the school. The school is trying to fix the insanely huge diversity problem. No one is saying that the quality of the education has to go down. But, being the very top school in the nation (based largely on test scores) is not nearly as important to me as us giving URM children a chance to experience a high quality STEM program. And, giving the students the opportunity to work with peers from diverse backgrounds, including black and latinx families.

Their "lack of interest" (which has never been proven) is likely lack of exposure to STEM, lack of resources to pursue STEM activities, and a general feeling of not being accepted in those privileged groups who do have access/resources.

These uniformed and biased arguments about why URM are not currently at TJ reminds me of our country's past where white culture promoted the idea that black people were less intelligent and physically stronger so they want to work in the fields. Why would they want a STEM education?

Is the current change in admission policy perfect, no. But, can we please respect that the State is trying to address a very important problem. And, they should not stop until it's addressed. They have tried other options in the past that failed. So, keep trying. I respect what they are trying to do.

Look, the bolded is the problem. But to fix it, you need programs that are long-term, expensive, booooring to implement and start very, very early. It's not a TJ problem. The SB is too chicken to admit that this is the problem and commit to fixing it. They want a quick fix. They got it in the lottery - which will do absolutely nothing about exposure to STEM in early ears or adding resources to pursue STEM activities.

But, they ARE trying to implement other programs that expose URM to STEM at an early age. Several programs already exist. No one is saying that the change in the application process is the only change - it is just the one getting most visibility. It is okay to implement an immediate fix now while working on more long term solutions. So what if some of the kids coming into TJ need extra support. If they have expressed interest (by applying, by stating so in their SIS) and have a 3.5 GPA and taken Algebra...so be it. Why do we assume that they will fail? Many of the URM children I know how way higher executive functioning skills than kids who have been given everything in life. If the TJ URM kids are willing to put in the time/effort - and TJ can provide the resources - why not give them a chance. And, in time, with the proper investment in early exposure, this will not be an issue.

My biggest peeve is people dismissing this issue as "they just don't want to be there".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find it extremely racist to dismiss the lack of diversity at TJ as: those URM kids are just not interested.

I am a URM minority. My child is at TJ. So, this post is from someone who has firsthand experience with the school. The school is trying to fix the insanely huge diversity problem. No one is saying that the quality of the education has to go down. But, being the very top school in the nation (based largely on test scores) is not nearly as important to me as us giving URM children a chance to experience a high quality STEM program. And, giving the students the opportunity to work with peers from diverse backgrounds, including black and latinx families.

Their "lack of interest" (which has never been proven) is likely lack of exposure to STEM, lack of resources to pursue STEM activities, and a general feeling of not being accepted in those privileged groups who do have access/resources.

These uniformed and biased arguments about why URM are not currently at TJ reminds me of our country's past where white culture promoted the idea that black people were less intelligent and physically stronger so they want to work in the fields. Why would they want a STEM education?

Is the current change in admission policy perfect, no. But, can we please respect that the State is trying to address a very important problem. And, they should not stop until it's addressed. They have tried other options in the past that failed. So, keep trying. I respect what they are trying to do.

Look, the bolded is the problem. But to fix it, you need programs that are long-term, expensive, booooring to implement and start very, very early. It's not a TJ problem. The SB is too chicken to admit that this is the problem and commit to fixing it. They want a quick fix. They got it in the lottery - which will do absolutely nothing about exposure to STEM in early ears or adding resources to pursue STEM activities.

Wait for the presentation on solving the pipeline issues. Brabrand indicated that the lottery was part 1 of a three part plan, #2 being the pipeline and #3 being wraparound support for the TJ population. Hopefully they will take 2 and 3 as seriously as they take 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The school will now be more for students who don’t look at it as a prize to win, but who actually have an interest in STEM. It won’t be comprised of students who prepped for an admissions process, but rather who are simply good students. It will definitely be more attractive to more URMs and more people in general as a result.

It won’t ruin the school, the schools already been ruined. This is a last chance effort to save it.

This is an interesting perspective. And I’m not saying it’s wrong.
I think whether or not the school has been “ruined” depends on what your view is as to its purpose to begin with. If its existence is aimed at fostering a rigorous STEM learning program to those who were high-achieving and showed high-interest in STEM then I think you’re correct.
If it’s meant to be the flagship “crown jewel” of FCPS that houses only the top of the top kids in academic performance, then yeah—the school board has “ruined” this (Or at least sacrificed its reputation, which is what consistently lands it at the top of the list in nationwide high school rankings) in favor of admissions outcome equity.

Its purpose "to begin with" was to keep a school open that otherwise might have been closed in mid-80s due to declining enrollment and to help market suburban office parks to defense contractors.

Every later definition of TJ's "purpose" has been an after-the-fact exercise to support the argument that the kids currently attending TJ are the ones who most belong there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.